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Cisco

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

Well adding another thread where you can post wins and losses +with the email would fix that problem. Also as for the points  both players will have to have joined the league for it to count, winner or loser sends or posts. If a player contends what was posted or sent(that is why  I think a thread is best as all can see)the game becomes obsolite if there is no proof(screenshot).

Offline Dragoon

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

If you have any suggestions on how to improve this league, leave a comment.  We'll consider it, but remember, we're trying to keep things simple.  Put in too many rules and restrictions and fewer games will be played and more rules will be broken.  Thanks!

Also, if you you have a question or just want to talk about the league and games you played, talk about it here.  No point in spamming a bunch of threads about the league in this forum since not everyone is involved in the league.

Offline Dragoon

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

Ok.  I'll change the rules from using the emails to using a thread.  I like the idea that it's more open too.

I just had a thought.  If we were to get multiple people updating the score, we could know if someone has updated by seeing if there's a quoted response to a person's post.  Say Jellyfish posts a game that he won.  When I see it, I could quote him and reply with something simple like "updated."  That way anybody else who's also updating will know that that game has been added already.  Hmmm . . . I think this might work.  Hey cisco, would you like to help keep the spreadsheet updated?  If you'd like to help, I can set the document up to share with you.  If not that's fine, maybe somebody else will step up to help.

Offline Dragoon

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

I have one suggestion. Right now there are SEVEN threads about this league.

Elements the League: Games
Elements the League: Chat
Elements the League: Sign Up
Elements the League: Suggestions
Elements the League: Rankings
Elements the League: Read First!!!
Leagues


This is WAY too much and completely unnecessary. I will only clog up the forum and be confusing to users.

My suggestion is that you combine/delete most of them like this:


THREAD 1 - Elements the League: Rules & Sign Up
Everything you need to know about this league could be found on this ONE thread. First post has all the rankings, rules and sign up information. Signing up can be done by PM or email, no need to have a sign up thread. Also here players can talk about anything concerning the league, again no need to have multiple threads.

Thread includes:
Elements the League: Chat
Elements the League: Sign Up
Elements the League: Suggestions
Elements the League: Rankings
Elements the League: Read First!!!


THREAD 2 - Elements the League: Games
This would be the thread where players post their wins/losses. This needs to have its own thread to avoid confusion.

Thread includes:
Elements the League: Games


DELETE
Leagues (not needed anymore)
First, it's not like this section of the forum is bursting at the seams with threads.  Not including the league related threads, there's only 2 other open threads. Second, I'm trying to make things obvious where to find pertinent info.  But I can see how too many threads is self-defeating.  So I'll try to streamline a little.  Third, the suggestions and chat thread was to prevent people from posting new threads to talk about the league.  I figured it was better to have a dedicated thread people can use for that then to spam the forum with league related posts that not everybody is interested in.  It's also better than posting info that's completely irrelevant to the thread topics.

For not wanting to be involved because it's too much work, you're spending quite a bit of time putting some thought and work into this.  But hey, I'll take whatever help and suggestions I can.  :D

I'll try to do what I can to streamline things.  However, this forum won't let me delete my own posts/threads and I don't know how to move them to the public archive.  And even if I do move them to the archive they're still populating this area, albeit as closed threads.  I'll need an admin/moderator to help me with some clean up.

Evil Hamster/Plichard/Uzra/Mr. Jellyfish, if you read this, could you respond so I know you're aware of what I'm trying to do.  Once I hear from you, I'll try to combine a couple of these threads and you can delete the ones that are not needed anymore.  Thanks.

Offline Dragoon

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

Quote
I think a league like this is just too much work, and keeping the score too complex.
Hopefully, you and everybody else except a few people won't have to worry about the work or complexity.  ;)

Quote
Better way imo would be to just have fast 8 or 16 man tournaments like this one: http://elementstheforum.smfforfree3.com/index.php/topic,581.0.html (http://elementstheforum.smfforfree3.com/index.php/topic,581.0.html)
As cisco said in another thread, we could host tournaments too and roll the scores into the league as well (probably counting each match as 2 or 3 normal matches).

Quote
But if you think this league format will work and don't mind updating the score, then go for it. Personally I'm probably going to wait for some kind built-in league system.
I really hope that he does something like that so I can free up some time.  But I'd rather put some time into this up front and have fun until he does something like this, then grind endlessly in the hopes that one day an official league will be formed.

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

Quote
1. Are you sure you have the time/energy to update all the match data using email?
Right now, probably.  But if things start getting pretty busy, I will have to figure something else out.  But it is a good point to bring up.  The difficulty I'm having is trying to figure out a way multiple people can update information without their being accidental redundancy in the updates.  How does one person know if another person has already updated the info or not?  I'm sure there's a way to do it, but I haven't thought of how.  It's definitely not a matter of me wanting to control everything, because I have enough things to do.  But it seems like nobody else wants to step up and get this going either and that's too bad, because I think this would be a fun thing to have.  Nevertheless, as soon as we can figure this out the better, because I'd definitely like to share this responsibility.

Quote
2. Are you sure players don't mind sending email every time they have a match?
I have no idea what players mind doing.  But they have to do something.  Like cisco said, we could set up a thread where people post results from their game, but it seems like it'd be more confusing that way.  But maybe not.  We could try it.

Quote
3. What if I send you an email where I say I won 100 matches? How do you know I'm telling the truth?
Yes, this is the unfortunate part.  But how does one make sure the person is not lying?  You can't watch games.  You can't record games.  If everybody knew how to take screenshots you could try that, but even that is manipulable.  But I guess we might could have both the winner and loser email/post to lessen the chance of someone just making up a bunch of games.  But honestly, I'm not sure what else we can do.  I'm definitely open to ideas.  This could become a major problem.  But just because it could become a problem doesn't mean we shouldn't try to have a league.  That's like saying zanz shouldn't have a t50 because people can hack their accounts.  Sure people can and will hack their accounts, but the idea is a good one, and he should just try to do what he can to make it more difficult for people to cheat.

Quote
4. I think this is a bad idea:

3.  The rules for switching out cards or decks between each game in a match is totally up to the two of you.  Just make sure you agree beforehand how you want to do it.  Here are some variations you can try:
     a.  No one can change their decks between each game.
     b.  Only the loser can change his deck between games.
     c.  Both players can change (or not change) their decks between games.
     d.  Both players have to change their decks between games.
     e.  Each player is only allowed to change x number of cards between each game.


This deck restriction is something I discussed with uzra on another thread.

It is VERY difficult for me to understand why on earth should there be any kind of restrictions on what kind of deck players can use. The way I see it, players should be able to use all the tools they are given by the designer of this game, and that includes changing decks between matches. Having five different rules variations just makes it more complicated because every time you challenge someone you have to agree on the rules.

With only one set of rules, everything would go much more smoothly.
There is only one rule: agree what you want to do beforehand.  I agree with you that changing decks is probably the best way to go.  But I purposely want to leave it open-ended to give flexibility and variation.  There may be others who would prefer to try one of the other variations.  You don't have to play them if you don't want to.  I think also the variations affect your deck building strategy and give another angle to playing others.  But you're right in that it does add an extra step.  I'll consider changing it to simplify things.  But if anybody else has any thoughts on this, I'd love to be able to hear it.

I appreciate the questions and suggestion SG.  I'm doing this for the community because I think it'd be a lot of fun for everyone involved.  But I definitely would like some help with this.  It seems like cisco is really keen on the idea too and I'd like to have his help.  If you'd like to help too SG, I wouldn't mind either.  Just help me think of a way that multiple people can update the games without us accidentally updating it multiple times.

Scaredgirl

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

I have one suggestion. Right now there are SEVEN threads about this league.

Elements the League: Games
Elements the League: Chat
Elements the League: Sign Up
Elements the League: Suggestions
Elements the League: Rankings
Elements the League: Read First!!!
Leagues


This is WAY too much and completely unnecessary. I will only clog up the forum and be confusing to users.

My suggestion is that you combine/delete most of them like this:


THREAD 1 - Elements the League: Rules & Sign Up
Everything you need to know about this league could be found on this ONE thread. First post has all the rankings, rules and sign up information. Signing up can be done by PM or email, no need to have a sign up thread. Also here players can talk about anything concerning the league, again no need to have multiple threads.

Thread includes:
Elements the League: Chat
Elements the League: Sign Up
Elements the League: Suggestions
Elements the League: Rankings
Elements the League: Read First!!!


THREAD 2 - Elements the League: Games
This would be the thread where players post their wins/losses. This needs to have its own thread to avoid confusion.

Thread includes:
Elements the League: Games


DELETE
Leagues (not needed anymore)

Scaredgirl

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

I think a league like this is just too much work, and keeping the score too complex.

Better way imo would be to just have fast 8 or 16 man tournaments like this one: http://elementstheforum.smfforfree3.com/index.php/topic,581.0.html (http://elementstheforum.smfforfree3.com/index.php/topic,581.0.html)

But if you think this league format will work and don't mind updating the score, then go for it. Personally I'm probably going to wait for some kind built-in league system.

Scaredgirl

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

Thanks for taking the time to do this. I have a couple of things..

1. Are you sure you have the time/energy to update all the match data using email?


2. Are you sure players don't mind sending email every time they have a match?


3. What if I send you an email where I say I won 100 matches? How do you know I'm telling the truth?


4. I think this is a bad idea:

3.  The rules for switching out cards or decks between each game in a match is totally up to the two of you.  Just make sure you agree beforehand how you want to do it.  Here are some variations you can try:
     a.  No one can change their decks between each game.
     b.  Only the loser can change his deck between games.
     c.  Both players can change (or not change) their decks between games.
     d.  Both players have to change their decks between games.
     e.  Each player is only allowed to change x number of cards between each game.


This deck restriction is something I discussed with uzra on another thread.

It is VERY difficult for me to understand why on earth should there be any kind of restrictions on what kind of deck players can use. The way I see it, players should be able to use all the tools they are given by the designer of this game, and that includes changing decks between matches. Having five different rules variations just makes it more complicated because every time you challenge someone you have to agree on the rules.

With only one set of rules, everything would go much more smoothly.

Scaredgirl

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:00 pm »

First, it's not like this section of the forum is bursting at the seams with threads.  Not including the league related threads, there's only 2 other open threads. Second, I'm trying to make things obvious where to find pertinent info.  But I can see how too many threads is self-defeating.  So I'll try to streamline a little.  Third, the suggestions and chat thread was to prevent people from posting new threads to talk about the league.  I figured it was better to have a dedicated thread people can use for that then to spam the forum with league related posts that not everybody is interested in.  It's also better than posting info that's completely irrelevant to the thread topics.

For not wanting to be involved because it's too much work, you're spending quite a bit of time putting some thought and work into this.  But hey, I'll take whatever help and suggestions I can.  :D

I'll try to do what I can to streamline things.  However, this forum won't let me delete my own posts/threads and I don't know how to move them to the public archive.  And even if I do move them to the archive they're still populating this area, albeit as closed threads.  I'll need an admin/moderator to help me with some clean up.

How many other active threads are on this forum is irrelevant. There should never be 7 different threads about a single topic if you can easily combine them. All those threads can and should be merged like I suggested. It's much easier when you can find all the information in one place. Right now getting league information is relatively easy but think about the situation once this forum is full of posts. All these 6 threads would be spread around. Having multiple threads doesn't make this league "bigger", only more confusing.

A very important thing you have to take into consideration is that this kind of league has to be very EASY for the player. Most players are lazy and if you make league too difficult, they won't bother with it. This is the main reason why I think these "post your own results" type of leagues will never become "mainstream".

I never said I don't want to get involved. Having a working league system would be great. I will give ideas etc. if I come up with something but I probably won't participate in the actual tournament. At least not yet.

BTW you might want to look into Google Spreadsheets. It can be updated my multiple users and could be used to store ranking data.

And you CAN delete your owns threads. I've done it before.

Cisco

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

Dragoon I´ll help with the google spreadsheets.  though sofar thers not much to do. :-\

Cisco

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Elements the League: Questions, Suggestions & Chat (Semi-Permalink)
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

K hamster seems nice and will help. Sign up even if you don´t ever play pvp. btw new goal for me is ...not let evil hamster stay in front t50 for too long lol. ;D

 

anything
blarg: