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Offline Drake_XIVTopic starter

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Study: Design Reflection https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48044.msg1054578#msg1054578
« on: March 27, 2013, 05:14:00 am »
Time to dust this off a little.

One thing that we can all agree on is that some of us disagree on the priorities on card design.  That being said, I would like to address our differences.  Among the more active designers, what would you say are some key things you feel are the most important when designing a card.  Please be as specific as possible.

For anyone interested in the discussion and being part of my shoddy attempt here to restart the Idea Factory, send me a PM for consideration.  For the most part, I will be following OldTree's standards for become part of the Idea Factory, but may make exceptions.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Study: Design Reflection https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48044.msg1054875#msg1054875
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2013, 04:15:24 am »
Card design reminds me of a joke:
Q. What's the best way to make an elephant sculpture?
A. Take a block of marble and a chisel, and chip away anything that doesn't look like elephant.
The sculptor doesn't create the elephant, rather they free it from the rest of the marble. It is similar in card design for each aspect of a card has demands about other parts of the card. These demands describe what is "elephant" and what is "marble". Some extrapolation results in the card already being complete and just waiting to be freed. Listening to what the card wants is a skill that is continually refined and never mastered.
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Offline Anarook

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Re: Study: Design Reflection https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48044.msg1054898#msg1054898
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2013, 07:07:45 am »
For me?
Impact on game.
Innovation.

I feel too many people focus on trying to fill "holes" in elements. This isn't always bad but if every element can do everything, then there's no longer a purpose to having different elements. Designing for specific areas should open a tunnel for innovation, but far too often I'm seeing something come out and then 10 other versions of it pop up and none of them are refined. Forum activity has a lot to do with this, but I've said it before, the restrictions on card submission into crucible need to be stricter.

I do believe I went off topic... hrmm...

Impact
Innovation
Balance

I tend to put these three highest on priority.
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Study: Design Reflection https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48044.msg1054966#msg1054966
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2013, 03:58:26 pm »
I generally tend to pin down the importance of a card on a certain part of it (usually a mechanic), and try to keep the 'spirit' of that part of the card alive, because that's what usually determines if it succeeds in it's purpose or not. Balance/Metagame impact/art/theme can be helpful factors, but if your card doesn't have a good reason to be used, it defeats the point of designing the card.
(Examples:
Spirit Nymph was an attempt to make an Other Nymph but failed in 'spirit' because I was forced to heavily nerf it.  It may be 'balanced', but it certainly doesn't have much of an appeal.
Decaying Dragon was a much better received 'Other Dragon' counterpart due to improved balance and appropriate drawback/thematic shift.
Quantum Locket was near spot-on from the beginning as a quantum fixer and only needed a slight change to become well balanced and a quantum fixer that enabled trios/quartets.)

I view card design as a combination of OldTrees's sculpture/marble analogy and the inverse - instead of 'carving' out a design from marble, one starts with an incomplete 'part' and builds on it to make a complete whole.

Listening to what the card wants is a skill that is continually refined and never mastered.
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Offline Hyroen

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Re: Study: Design Reflection https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48044.msg1055009#msg1055009
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2013, 07:34:27 pm »
Firstly, I'm glad the IF was revived, it definitely needed more action.



When it comes down to card design I try to focus on 3 main things:
  • Innovation
  • Affinity
  • Balance

Cards which recycle mechanics already in game essentially take apart certain cards and put them back together, but not in new interesting ways. This method of card design although very safe and easy to integrate, doesn't expand the game. Also, to bring up a point which was made in a different thread; we as Card Designers are people who challenge ourselves. We should not be resorting to the "shot-in-the-blank" method of card design hoping that 1/1000 of our attempts will be included in the game. Having diligence, creativity and pride will allow you to grow as a Designer, which is more important. Elements the Game is still a relatively new game, one which has a lot of potential to grow and is not in a phase where we can afford any safe method of card design, or a method of assembly line, it needs to expand creatively, uniquely and integrate new mechanics.

This however doesn't mean that every element deserves every mechanic. When designing, I try to think of why this card fits in the element, and also why the skill cost is of a certain element. We must remember as Card Designers that every element has their playstyles and when we create a card, we are either enforcing them or making more obscure. We must always try to enforce them unless the current playstyles do not fully embody the element. We must also keep in mind that thematic link should never take precedence over mechanic affinity; just because Piranhas live in water doesn't mean that their impatience and voracity should be ignored when considering mechanic affinity and :water Water's playstyle.

Once the previous points are addressed balance is more of a pseudo-optional challenge. We know that Zanzarino does his own testing anyway, the idea is what's needed mostly. A balanced card however makes a more appealing card, one which can already be imagined in game. There have previously been discussions on OT's Cost Theory, some crediting it as essential to design, others saying that there are major flaws in it. These are simply 2 sides to the same coin however. As the theory was formulated from balance within the game, its structure holds well when it considers the current simplicity, however a lot of guesswork is needed when a true value cannot be calculated for certain factors such as hold speed, playability, or turn triggers, we can see that more thorough calculations become needed. This said, if your card idea can't quite use the Cost Theory as well as other ideas then you are indeed challenging the current simplicity.

Innovation, Affinity and Balance then become very interrelated. A card design which does any of these a disservice could negatively impact the game. For me these are most important. Other smaller details such as niche specificity, card visuals, and comprehension are things which should not be forgotten as these are also factors which Zanzarino clearly keeps in mind when adding cards.
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Offline moomoose

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Re: Study: Design Reflection https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48044.msg1055044#msg1055044
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2013, 11:04:05 pm »
I wrote a script and gave it to a guy that reads scripts. And he read it and said he really likes it, but he thinks I need to rewrite it. I said, "F that, I'll just make a copy."

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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Study: Design Reflection https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48044.msg1055153#msg1055153
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2013, 10:10:13 am »
Quick Summary:
Verisimilitude (Affinity, thematic consistency, respecting the elements, etc)
Innovation
Impact
Balance
Aesthetics
Clarity (Keep it Simple)
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
"Nothing exists that cannot be countered." -OldTrees on indirect counters
Ask the Idea Guru: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,32272.0.htm

 

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