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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Project: Champion Cards (Polls Running!) https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg359649#msg359649
« on: July 02, 2011, 11:46:51 am »
This is under construction. We need to refine some things before actually starting this project. Name is also subject to change, if a better one arises.

The base concept is simple: we are going to post in the opening posts of this thread some cards which, by the Idea Factory's point of view, are particularly deserving. This will be a parallel system to the Crucible / Forge / Armory / Reliquary system, with the aim of creating a place where the most intresting and deserving cards (again, by our point of view, as opposed to the community's point of view) are advertised to both the community, possible new cards creators and who knows, maybe even Zanzarino himself.
I think about 4 different categories are fine, but I'm reserving space for up to 8 different categories although that would be excessive. The categories I thought about are:
- Cards that answer to specific balance issues
- Cards that expand the game and create new decktypes
- Cards that have an intriguing mechanic or theme
- Cards that contribute to the balance between different elements
Each category will have a post with a big title, a brief description of the category and the three "Champion Cards" in evidence, with the proper link and everything. Then underneath a spoiler with a couple runner-ups (ideally 0-4, requirements shall be very strict).

As for how to actually get cards here, my idea for the procedure is the following: any IF member can propose a card by posting here card image and link (as we have in the Crucible polls). We then get a poll that runs for exactly one week (to speed things up a bit, might be more in the future) and if at least 75% (maybe even more) of the voters think it meets the requirements, we add it to the list along to its % of votes. The 3 cards with the most votes are the Champion Cards. Also, we'll probably have a vote once every... say... 3 months or so between all cards in this section to crown the "Best Card" (or something). Feedback please? :)

CHAMPION CARDS

Champion Cards are the cards elected by the Idea Factory to be the most intresting cards of their genre. In order to be elected a Champion Card must pass a very rigid votation, and will be thoroughly discussed by the Idea Factory, so the cards that do make it will be the most awesome of the lot!

Each member of the Idea Factory may present cards for evaluation and voting. In order to do so they shall post in this thread the images of a card (both unupped and upped), and provide a short paragraph describing the qualities of the card and why, in their opinion, it would qualify as a potential Champion Card. Voting will last two weeks and cards will be voted the last two weeks of every month. Proposed cards will be put in a list, and will be voted upon at the end of the month. In order for a card to qualify as a possible Champion, it will need to have at least 75% of votes. The cards that reach 75% of votes but have less votes than the former Champions, or the Champions that are surpassed, are moved to an archive underneath the Champions themselves for a special mention.

Please keep in mind that this is supposed to be very strict. Do not vote cards that may be improved in any way, or unoriginal, flat or otherwise bad cards. Vote only for the best.
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg359650#msg359650
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2011, 11:47:07 am »
CHAMPIONS OF BALANCE

These are the Champions of Balance: the cards that present the best answer to specific balancing problems inside the game. They are staple of inventive thinking: they fix in-game problems without affecting the cards directly, but instead by adding new elements to the metagame and changing how cards work indirectly.


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy

[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg359651#msg359651
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011, 11:47:55 am »
CHAMPIONS OF EXPANSION

These are the Champions of Expansion: the cards that would add a whole new level to the metagame by creating a good number of new decktypes. They are great examples of thoughtful card creation: their addition to the game would bring a lot more novelty than the addition of any other single card.


Quantum Locket | Quantum Locket
   
Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy

[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg359652#msg359652
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 11:48:23 am »
CHAMPIONS OF FLAVOR

These are the Champions of Flavor: the cards that have a new, intresting and brilliantly unique mechanic, a good thematic addition to the game that may not be the most important change in Element's history, but that would improve the game's quality by adding a new niche card. They are masterpieces of card creation, adding that layer of thematic variety that distinguishes Elements from other card games.


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy

[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg359653#msg359653
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 11:48:46 am »
CHAMPIONS OF VARIETY

These are the Champions of Variety: the cards that most enhance the capacities of a single element while not being too powerful and without stretching that element's theme. They are wonderful cards that contribute to the balance of different elements by expanding each element's possibilities rather than restricting them.


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy


Dummy | Dummy

[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline moomoose

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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg359685#msg359685
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 02:12:00 pm »
i think it may be less tedious for whoever runs the thread and the voting if the cards are accumulated to select which ones are accepted once a month or so (similar to forge)- maybe every 3 months if this is going to be an ongoing thing, and then at the end of the year (December) we have a best card ideas of the year vote, rather than many three month votes.

all in all it may help to revive some of the good cards which were lost in the forge archive to never be seen again, before their time.  a tangent idea would be to have a separate thread would be to recreate something along the lines of gl1tch's scrapyard thread here, where if we think we found a very good card that just needed to be altered in some way in order to be a more balanced or overall successful card.  but like i said, thats a bit tangent to the original purpose of this thread.
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg361213#msg361213
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 05:36:05 pm »
I revised the posts with a simple layout and some descriptions. What do you think about it? Do you have any suggestions? Should we start presenting the first cards? That might give a start to the topic.

EDIT: I'm going to go on and start this anyway. I can't see it being a bad thing, so...

Here are some intresting cards which in my opinion deserve a special mention.

For Champions of Balance:

Dark Kraken | Dark Kraken
   
The best buff to Flooding ever. A very nice addition to Water that provides a form of reliable Permanent Control... when comboed with Flooding. Overall balanced and it would be a great addition to the game if it was introduced. Cost is in line with attack and the requirement pays for the ability; however, hps are high and thematically that might not be the best solution. I would very much like to see this in the game!

Harpy | Harpy
   
A good way to increase Nightmare's value. Somewhat damaged by the recent Nightmere buffs, but it would still be a good card in Ghostmere. Good balance, maybe a little out of date but still a wonderful card and a staple of the genre.

Twin Headed Wyvern | Twin Headed Wyvern
   
A worthy mid-range attacker for Air, fixes unupped Wyrm's lack of punch without really buffing it. Wyrms would still be played due to their Dive ability, but for decks that do not have the means to exploit it we have Twin Headed Wyvern. I feel that it could be a bit more inspired and awesome, but I guess it's still very good, balanced and fills a spot that needs a counterweight.


For Champions of Expansion:

Quantum Locket | Quantum Locket
   
You all know this card. One of the most balanced quantum producers around, very versatile and reliable. We discussed about it recently in the Quantum Generators Project, and it came out on top of our competition. It's a brilliant idea and a very reliable card. Expands the game onto new territories, as all new Quantum Producers do. Easy to see that this is a top-level card.

Harmonic Pillar | Harmonic Tower
   
An old-as-dirt concept, but still brilliant. Very nice quantum producer, allows for a great variety of decks, including trios and maybe quartets. Good card, with little drawbacks. Also one of the first cards to make it to the Armory.

Magnet Tracer | Magnet Tracer
   
One of the rare examples of this category that isn't a quanta producer, this little gem introduces a good way to call upon cards in your deck. That mechanic alone is enough to allow for great combo-decks and will probably be one of the most intresting changes in the metagame, if it is ever introduced. Well balanced towards Hourglass, effectively having the same cost even though it has a different effect. If it is introduced it will represent almost a revolution in the game.

For Champions of Flavor:

Soulsteel | Soulsteel
   
Very thematic. Combos nicely with death effects and increases death/darkness synergy, introduces an unique mechanic to the game and is definitely well balanced. Although Death has already got a good amount of cards, this would still be a wonderful addition: it may not add a whole lot of new things to the game, but it's just plain cool to have.

Monkey | Monkey
   
Almost too fun to play. Great new synergy between life and time, great synergy with about anything in the game, including, possibly, your opponent's deck. And besides, who doesn't want a Monkey in his deck?

Will-o'-the-Wisp | Will-o'-the-Night
   
Devilishly fun, thematic and well balanced. This card made it to the Armory amazingly fast, and deserves a spotlight for its brilliant semplicity.

For Champions of Variety:

Windswept | Windswept
   
Permanent control is scarce in this game. This idea, while being flavorful, gives PC to one of the elements that completely lack it: Windswept qualifies for its balance, semplicity and overall uniqueness to be a great card idea, and a very useful card were it to be introduced in the game.

Lignification | Lignification
   
Lignification is a brilliant and flavorful idea for soft CC - something Life dreadfully needs. It also increases Life's stalling capacity, causing it to be one of the best suggestions for that element. Its potential is great, for it can be dreadfully effective against many decks when combined with Life's good healing.

Touch of Midas | Touch of Midas
   
Speaking of possible PC suggestions, what about Touch of Midas? Very nice card that offers good PC possibilities to Time while being less powerful than a destruction-oriented Deflagration... but also possibly more versatile when used on one's own pillars.
[18:21:43] jmdt: elements is just math over top of a GUI
Kakerlake: I believe that there is no God as in something that can think by itself and does stuff that sounds way OP.

Offline moomoose

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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg362024#msg362024
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 09:30:38 pm »
ignore his comments about monkey, it is in a tie with my warthog! haha
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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg362105#msg362105
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 01:00:56 am »
Good start The Mormegil.

Champions for Balance critique:
I submit for approval the additional rule that Champions for Balance must not be forced fixes. IE they must fix the problem without creating a necessary partnership/answer for either side.
Dark Kraken is a good example that is fine except that it violates this rule.

Critique of Twin Headed Wyvern | Twin Headed Wyvern
It is identical to Wyrm unupped (if Dive is activated each turn) including total costs except THW is +3 total damage stronger.
Pros:
+3|4 damage on turn 1 vs a comparable Wyrm
Not lobotomizeable
Upgraded Adrenaline would go (8,6,3 instead of 10,4,2)
Cons:
Adrenaline would go 6,4,2 instead of 6,3,3,3
Must pay for "Dive" every turn
Dies if it cannot "Dive" at the end of the turn
Will not have doubled benefit from attack buffs
Summary: Fails to be balanced or even equal IMHO to Wyrm

I will post my recommendations on Friday
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Offline The_MormegilTopic starter

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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg362300#msg362300
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 10:48:08 am »
Good start The Mormegil.

Champions for Balance critique:
I submit for approval the additional rule that Champions for Balance must not be forced fixes. IE they must fix the problem without creating a necessary partnership/answer for either side.
Dark Kraken is a good example that is fine except that it violates this rule.

Critique of Twin Headed Wyvern | Twin Headed Wyvern
It is identical to Wyrm unupped (if Dive is activated each turn) including total costs except THW is +3 total damage stronger.
Pros:
+3|4 damage on turn 1 vs a comparable Wyrm
Not lobotomizeable
Upgraded Adrenaline would go (8,6,3 instead of 10,4,2)
Cons:
Adrenaline would go 6,4,2 instead of 6,3,3,3
Must pay for "Dive" every turn
Dies if it cannot "Dive" at the end of the turn
Will not have doubled benefit from attack buffs
Summary: Fails to be balanced or even equal IMHO to Wyrm

I will post my recommendations on Friday
Well, when I first thought of Champions of Balance, I had in mind especially Dark Kraken, to be honest, so a rule that cuts it out (as in, cuts that type of card out, I don't really care about the Kraken in itself poor beasty) is a rule against what I originally had in mind. I'm not especially against it, provided that you can:
1) Find good examples of what you think should be a good Champion of Balance
2) Tell me where I should submit cards like Dark Kraken. After all it's an excellent card, in my opinion, in that it provides a good change in the game, increases potential water decks, creates another form of PC and all that. I think I see your point in that it forces a combo, but Ghost of the Past practically does too... and it has been a good addition. It's a good standalone attacker too, to be sure, but Dark Kraken's stats can be tweaked to turn it into a standalone card if needed (to step away from Toadfish territory, maybe increasing his cost along with his attack would be nice).

Also, regarding Twin-Headed Hydra... I completely agree. It's there to fill the third spot mostly. XD I wouldn't even vote for it, but I needed an example of potential Champion of Balance that fixed the Wyrm kind of problem. Also, I didn't find any better example for that category, and I wanted three cards for category to get this started. So... yeah. It could be tweaked a bit, though: Air would benefit from another mid-range attacker. Leave Wyrm to buffs and use a good midrange hitter that potentially has a side ability... I might even start to work on that.
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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg362369#msg362369
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 02:13:05 pm »
kraken- i like it, the ability limitation is a good balancing mechanic.
harpy- its a good card, but personally im not as big a fan as others when it comes to finding reasons to boost the effectiveness of nightmare, its annoying enough as-is.
wyvren- its weak, even after the buff the card received.  the cost/dmg ratio gets weaker each turn the card is in play and it dies if there is no :air to drain.  im sure you could snoop around level 3 for a better fit (refraining from self-promoting here)

the expansions are all good choices.

soulsteel- i feel is a bad choice, it has the same issues that the necronomicon has- it is a mono :death death effect trigger.  and it could create super-vampire blades, not too fond of that either.  its a cool theme, but it isnt practical.
monkey- cute card, but another card that requires a history function in elements, which zanz is reluctant, unable, or just wont do.
wisp- its sort of like neurotoxin but also deals creature damage and doesnt need an atk boost to start functioning, not a huge fan.

the variety choices are alright, but i wasn't all that wow'd by them
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Re: Project: Champion Cards https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=28165.msg362405#msg362405
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 03:21:15 pm »
Hmm...

I think a good idea to start with will be utility cards.

Many elements have them, and they are obvious right away, because they all have that same Unique cost that makes them simple support to any deck and very splashable.
The important thing about utilities is that they are just so darn useful. They can ALL be used in any kind of deck, meaning that every single utility opens up 11 different duos to worry about.

 :aether Lightning | Thunderbolt
 :air Shockwave | Shockwave, also Fog Shield | Fog Shield (Although Fog is limited by Permanent slots)
 :darkness Nightmare | Nightmare (Least useful of the utilities IMO, not enough versatility, but useable.)
 :death None (You could say that Poison is close)
 :earth Basilisk Blood | Basilisk Blood
 :entropy None (Chaos Seed | Chaos Power is close)
 :fire Deflagration | Explosion
 :gravity Momentum | Unstoppable, Gravity Pull | Gravity Force
 :life None (Nothing even close)
 :light None (Luciferin, Holy Light, and Blessing come close but aren't quite the same)
 :time Reverse Time | Rewind, Precognition | Precognition
 :water None (Freeze comes close)

Many decks are complimented extremely well by the simple addition of a utility spell.
They make the element much more useful to include in decks, and allow many more useful combinations to be pulled out of thin air.
Between decks that are both based around them and cards that simply use them for support, nothing can go wrong when using them.
This series of cards is IMO one of the best in the game.

Break down of existing utilities:
- Lightning | Thunderbolt is a simple damage spell, but it is the best in the game for it's simplicity. The sheer denial it causes can be immense, as it 1KOs a large variety of creatures and can occasionally let you gain card advantage. Even in cases where you can't use it on creatures, 5 damage to your opponent's HP can add up and can easily win you the game.
- Shockwave | Shockwave is a damage spell one step below Lightning, but it serves a much larger versatility in uses. The added instakill and Permanent Control effects give it a larger variety of uses than a simple Lightning, and performs it's damage capabilities ALMOST just as well.
- Fog Shield | Fog Shield is simply the easiest to add shield in the game to add to a deck. It has the potential to mitigate a lot of damage, for only a very small quanta cost. However, it's shield slot limit means that it can't be splashed in quite the same way as other Utilities (You won't find a deck with Air mark and 6 Fog Shields).
- Nightmare | Nightmare is simply put, a tide-turner. A single draw and a bit of drain can mean that you're winning instead of your opponent. Enough of these chained together can deny your opponent a draw for quite some time. However, I don't feel it is versatile enough stand-alone to really take up that utility slot.
- Basilisk Blood | Basilisk Blood combines 2 uses that are both amazing. It is the best unconditional CC in the game, putting out a monster for the majority of a quick game, making it both deal no damage or be able to use it's ability. It's also a buff card that's extremely useful to a few decks, In particular Voodoo Doll and Gravity Pull.
- Deflagration | Explosion is quite possibly one of the best cards in the game. Quick PC that lets you take down so many more different decks, and is a welcome, or even sought after addition to many decks. There are just so many powerful permanents in the game that this card almost always finds a use that will win you the duel.
- Momentum | Unstoppable is a very cheap buff card and gives what's considered to be one of the most powerful abilities in the game. It singlehandedly lets you bust past many a stall. Also considered to be one of the best cards for buffing scorpion, since it gives you a guaranteed chance to deal poison damage.
- Gravity Pull | Gravity force is a utility that I think is underestimated. It can be a great method of defense combined with cards like Titan or Voodoo Doll, letting you stop the enemy creatures indefinitely. It also acts as one of the most powerful Creature Control spells in the game, letting you kill almost any creature in the game in 1-2 turns, albeit at the cost of your own damage (This is why it is so underused.) Also, Momentum is a much more powerful utility card so this is often overshadowed.
- Reverse Time | Rewind is the ultimate card for gaining advantage in general. In any buff deck it gives a crushing amount of card advantage, making your opponent lose any and all buffs put on the creature, lose it's growth, make your opponent lose a draw, and makes them need to pay for it again. It's an extremely powerful card against many decks that are designed to pay costs only once like Novabows and Immolation decks, as it can put a creature on hold for who knows how long.
- Precognition | Precognition is used generally as a deck thinner. It lets you cut the size of your deck in order to find the cards you need much easier. It's second effect is also useful, but less so IMO. Since it only benefits rushes primarily, it is generally overshadowed by Reverse Time in usefulness.

That's my break down of the existing cards. They can be put into these basic categories:
- Damage Spell
- Permanent Control
- Buff
- Draw Denial
- Damage Prevention
- Deck Thinning
- Unconditional Creature Control (HP is a non-factor).

As such these are the kinds of things, or similar, that we want to include in our own utilities.

My ideas:

:death is strangely lacking creature control. For an element so intent on triggering death effects it's extremely bad at doing so. All of it's CC is DoT, and it could use a good damage spell that fits in thematically.
:entropy has a lot of potential in thematic ideas for Utilities. However, we must be careful not to overstep boundaries and give it something that could be considered to powerful in conjunction with other Entropy cards.
:life really, really, REALLY, needs some kind of control. Either PC or CC works, but it needs a Utility cards desperately to gain some power in any kind of environment. Being a passive element it should be designed as soft control, and possibly given a dual purpose that increases it's versatility. In particular I think another way to deal with permanents is important to the metagame.
:light similarly needs some sort of control, but can be given some harder control thematically, depending on how we approach it.
:water is an interesting element to put a utility card in, because I don't think it needs any more control. It's already one of the more powerful stall elements, and can synergize well with control decks anyways. With that said, things like Buffs or Draw Denial would do well to compliment the game meta.

 

anything
blarg: