Guest posts by dougempty

13

Game Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Would you play Elements more if the cost of upgrades were lower?

« on: September 12, 2010, 08:33:38 am »

Consider the current community. Only about 5-10 players have a perfect deck out of an active several hundred. To me, that ratio indicates that the price range is VERY WELL BALANCED as it is.

balanced to you means only 5% should have an upgraded deck?

Of course not, that's not what I said. I have several completely upgraded decks myself.

Balanced means that only 5% (actually less than that) of the players have a PERFECT deck, meaning that they've done everything they can do and for them the game is basically "won." In other words, they have 6 copies of every single upgraded card already (except maybe nymphs in some cases).

There is no reason to change things in my view. If people find grinding boring, that implies that they are actually DOING it ... which is proof that the system does in fact entice them to play with the current constraints.

finding grinding boring does not prove that grinding is enticing. people grinding today does not mean those people will keep grinding tomarrow. i have 4 times as many friends who quit over the upgrades than people who stuck with it. the casual players are gonna go somewhere they don't feel hopelessly lower class.

i like the idea of scaled up costs for upgrades as you get more of them but only if there is a cap. i also think starting with a base of 1000 and adding 100 each time is still too much. getting 5 cheap upgrades isn't gonna be enough to keep casual players interested. you should be able to get at least 30 before it gets expensive so they can have an upgraded deck to work with.

The majority of comments left by the majority of players on the majority of fansites for the majority of games are just like this. Players always tend to be biased towards what would personally make the game easier for themselves, given the goal of victory, but with only short-term benefits.

Having a completely upgraded deck represents the final stage of development for many players' accounts. That is to say, the whole point of the game is to get to that one perfect deck that can take down False Gods, etc. That goal should be hard to reach -- and by MMOG standards it should probably take a year or two rather than a few weeks like it does in Elements.

The fact that the most popular multiplayer online games require THOUSANDS of hours of grinding to achieve the "perfect" character is not insignificant. The truth is that the more players within the player base do NOT have a perfect account, the better; it keeps more people playing longer. The tradeoff is that if your goals are literally impossible to reach, there is a bit of a letdown for those players who want to be the "best." Generally the ratio you'll find (just look around at other games) is a very small percentage like 2-4 percent of active players who are in that range. Of course this depends in part on how long the game has been running as well.

calling your entire collection your deck is what threw me. i call the 30-60 cards i'm currently using my deck.

so if we look at the most popular online multiplayer games, we see that the only reason they are the most popular is because of a precise 2-4 percent of people who have "beat" them...? and that makes it the best possible game mechanic...?


...but anyway, i'm not talking about myself. i have several upgraded decks and i enjoy a challenge. i have been around since close to the beginning and i got many people playing this game and i watched as most of them quit when the upgrades came out because they were so expensive. i'm talking about them. i'm talking about the casual players and the busy players that make up the majority of gamers that can't upgrade a deck in anywhere near two weeks. i'm talking about this game and if it's gonna spread to the widest possible audience, it needs to be easier on and more fun for the casual players without losing to much depth for the hardcore player.

i have voiced my support for many different ideas that could satisfy both the hardcore players and the casual players. but if they simply lower the cost for upgrades and the game gets a little shorter to "beat" but more people actually play it, i think that would be good for the game and the community as well (and i will also point out that pvp is alway going to be a challenge, even to a player with all the upgrades.)

because some people stop at one upgraded deck is not a reason to make it very difficult for the majority who don't or can't play often. besides, maybe some of those people who stopped, stopped because that one upgraded deck had been so time consuming.

and maybe you shouldn't be so eager to dismiss someone as just one of the so called short sighted and selfish majority.

i also think starting with a base of 1000 and adding 100 each time is still too much. getting 5 cheap upgrades isn't gonna be enough to keep casual players interested. you should be able to get at least 30 before it gets expensive so they can have an upgraded deck to work with.

Base of 750 and adding 50 was my first idea but after seeing you guys talked changed to 1k+100. What do you think of the former?

It would give 15 ups before it reaches 1.5k, so for a 30 card deck you would have it half upgraded...

ya, i think that this would be better but i still think it should be cheaper. base of 500 (or even less) sounds good to me. that would give you at least 20 upgrades. i think that getting that first upgraded deck is going to hook people better.

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Game Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Would you play Elements more if the cost of upgrades were lower?

« on: September 12, 2010, 03:39:44 am »

Consider the current community. Only about 5-10 players have a perfect deck out of an active several hundred. To me, that ratio indicates that the price range is VERY WELL BALANCED as it is.

balanced to you means only 5% should have an upgraded deck?

There is no reason to change things in my view. If people find grinding boring, that implies that they are actually DOING it ... which is proof that the system does in fact entice them to play with the current constraints.

finding grinding boring does not prove that grinding is enticing. people grinding today does not mean those people will keep grinding tomarrow. i have 4 times as many friends who quit over the upgrades than people who stuck with it. the casual players are gonna go somewhere they don't feel hopelessly lower class.

i like the idea of scaled up costs for upgrades as you get more of them but only if there is a cap. i also think starting with a base of 1000 and adding 100 each time is still too much. getting 5 cheap upgrades isn't gonna be enough to keep casual players interested. you should be able to get at least 30 before it gets expensive so they can have an upgraded deck to work with.

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Game Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Would you play Elements more if the cost of upgrades were lower?

« on: September 11, 2010, 01:55:47 pm »

i don't understand why 1500 is the only fun number. i just don't get it. the only reason to play the game is just to grind to exactly 1500? 1499? absolutely no fun. when i buy a video game on sale, paying less for it makes playing that game absolutely no fun. if they lowered the price on juice, i'd stop drinking it. if more expensive upgrades is what makes the game fun, they should just raise the price to 1.5 million. thats 1000 times the fun!

sorry about the sarcasm

i don't think lowering the cost of upgrades would necessarily suck all the fun out of the game. i mean, people played before there were even upgrades in the first place. if they lower the prices, you're not losing anything. you payed good money to have those upgrades first.

besides, grinding for upgrades is not the only thing to do on this game. testing new decks in an ever changing and unpredictable pvp enviroment is where the real challenge is and as long as new cards keep coming out, there will always be new decks and new challenges to look forward to.

anyway, i like the idea of adding a rating system strictly for pvp. it would give you a place to go (or if you're on top, a place to defend) after grinding for those upgrades. they should also raise the reward for those willing to brave this potentially deadly enviroment.

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Deck Help / Re: Try This If You Still Don't Have A Good Deck

« on: September 11, 2010, 12:28:53 pm »

full moons army deck only has 22 cards. are the other 8 entropy pillars?

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Game Suggestions and Feedback / Re: "Fake Gods" Costs less

« on: September 09, 2010, 01:19:38 pm »

well if higher rewards that should also mean better % of winning on slots.. im really sick of beating the FG and getting 60 or w/e electrum cuz i didnt EM them and then i never win a card..

i agree

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In-game Troubleshooting / Re: Top 50 not working for me

« on: September 08, 2010, 10:22:13 am »

i have this problem too.

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General Discussion / Re: Second Upgrade

« on: September 08, 2010, 08:26:24 am »

What I've thought about is not a uber-upgrade that could be done after the first upgrade but an alternative upgrade.

Not necessarily more expensive than the one we know, but an alternative one. If we call the actual upgrade A, wa can call the new one B.

If you really think that grinding is harmful for this game, let's assume that B is cheaper, maybe 750g.

if you express the difference between an acutal unupped card and an upped one, like the horned frog, the actual upgrade A do this :

upgrade cost : 1k5
quanta cost : no change.
Strenght : +2.
Stamina : no change.

Imagine that upgrade B is some thing like this :

(1)
upgrade cost : 750
quanta cost : no change.
Strenght : no change.
Stamina : +1

or it could be this :

(2)
upgrade cost : 750
quanta cost : +2
Strenght : +2
Stamina : +1

or ... whatever, the ideas are not the problem ^^

You can first do upgrade A or B, and then complete with the other to have a totally upgraded card :

Horned Frog : 2 3/3
Horned Frog B : 4 5/4
Horned Frog A (giant frog) : 2 5/3
Horned Frog A+B : 4 7/4

(just an example with the second example of upgrade B)

So with only one more upgrade, a single card could have 4 different states.
The reduced cost should allowed new players to improve their deck faster and don't disgust them from the game.

I see two thing by the way :
-> more and more card names to find (not really difficult but annoying)
-> it coul be hard to implement for Zanz, i don't know.

i like this. it would add a cheaper upgrade to keep noobs and casual players interested as well as a more expensive upgrade to keep vets interested. not to mention more possible card choices/ decks.

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Game Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Would you play Elements more if the cost of upgrades were lower?

« on: September 08, 2010, 07:39:38 am »

If this debate is split between people who have already upgraded a bunch of cards and mostly voted no and people who are just starting out and mostly voted yes, it would seem to me that most of the people who are just starting wouldn't be likely to be members of the forums yet and aren't voting. It would also seem to me that the number of people just starting would grow as the game spreads and be greater than the number of long time players but i don't know that for sure.

if the people who have been playing a long time don't want to feel like they're losing something, maybe it could just be made easier to make money instead of changing buy costs. i mean a doubt many people complained when they implemented the oracle. maybe they could add more spins for higher levels or make upgraded cards sell for more or something. something so that everone gains something.

i like the longevity of this game but i do think it takes too long to upgrade a card. i'd like to see upgrades get a lot easier to get so it doesn't feel like forever to get somewhere for people who can't grind all day. if they do change that, i'd like to see them add something like a second upgrade and higher ai and pvp levels so the game doesn't lose longevity.

I don't know what kind of longevity you are talking about, but I think over 400,000 active accounts (and counting...) with over 11 million games played since launch is a pretty good indication of longevity.

i meant replay value. an upgrade system makes me feel like there is still something new to see, somewhere to go. between that, pvp, and the numerous strategies/decks to build and test, that could keep people playing for a long time. i have more friends though that don't play very often or have stopped completely because it takes so long to get anywhere than i have friends who play often. they play games that feel more rewarding for their time. i think that for this game to appeal to the widest audience, it needs something for the majority (i assume) with little time to game and to the minority (i assume) with lots of time to game.

i'm curious how many inactive accounts/soon to be inactive/deleted accounts there are. how many people played for awhile but got bored of the monotany of endless grinding for a couple of upgraded cards

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Game Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Would you play Elements more if the cost of upgrades were lower?

« on: September 08, 2010, 02:06:39 am »

If this debate is split between people who have already upgraded a bunch of cards and mostly voted no and people who are just starting out and mostly voted yes, it would seem to me that most of the people who are just starting wouldn't be likely to be members of the forums yet and aren't voting. It would also seem to me that the number of people just starting would grow as the game spreads and be greater than the number of long time players but i don't know that for sure.

if the people who have been playing a long time don't want to feel like they're losing something, maybe it could just be made easier to make money instead of changing buy costs. i mean a doubt many people complained when they implemented the oracle. maybe they could add more spins for higher levels or make upgraded cards sell for more or something. something so that everone gains something.

i like the longevity of this game but i do think it takes too long to upgrade a card. i'd like to see upgrades get a lot easier to get so it doesn't feel like forever to get somewhere for people who can't grind all day. if they do change that, i'd like to see them add something like a second upgrade and higher ai and pvp levels so the game doesn't lose longevity.