Guest posts by WaffleT2

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

Cool. I always wanted to do that but chose boring business studies instead.

Haha i did a semester of business studies at uni too, thats interesting.

That was a very nice post you seem to have understood what i was trying to say there and that is enough for me.

It is quite likely that i have approached this topic from too philosophical point of view, i have a tendency to hate it when people say absolute statements when really its just a possible conclusion and thats kind of what i was picking on here, pretty much any "this is always true" is going to be false and i get a little caught up when people can't see the point from both sides. As you said "being wrong is part of being human"

Many posts are just "totally wrong" as you put it. Some people stay out of it but I tend to correct it when people say wrong/dumb things

I have a tendency to do that too and pretty much all i was doing here, i saw an absolute statement "grinding is always bad" and couldn't help but point out that there is a glimmer of subjectivity to grinding and therefore that statement cannot be 100% true. This is quite a philosophical stance to take and probably wasn't that productive in this forum but nobody was forced to participate and it was interesting to see peoples opinion on this clearly volatile subject.

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

I didn't 'go philosophical' in order to win an argument, but i am a philosophy student so it is possible that my study has influenced my writing style.

And i did mention that my list was an extreme version though i accidentally put two mistakes in there "getting gold and getting new cards" Those are the rewards and it was an accident i included them in that list because i should have put the matches that you do in order to get those rewards.

I agree that most of the world finds similar things boring and your extreme example isn't really needed there but admitting that boring is a subjective term is a big step for you because its the first time i've seen you acknowledge that people can have a view other then your own without being "totally wrong".

Questing is not grinding because even though it can be boring, it is not repetitive.

Now that is totally wrong. Questing can be very repetitive.

I did start to cross over into things that aren't video games in an attempt to show how far you can stretch a definition to cover large groups when you are talking subjective over objective but i guess we should keep things directly related to the gameplay in this game because the concept of grinding outside those borders might get a little too advanced and confusing for this discussion.

I can easily see that you don't even know what grinding is

Oh and i was simply extracting points from your definition of grinding, not my own so you can't really make comments on something you haven't even heard

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:16 pm »

hmm this is where it gets tricky, Scaredgirl is very happy to give us black and white answers as to what is grinding but her own definition is a little grey
"is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game"

Not not pick on her but Scaredgirl also uses the statement "grinding is by definition boring" a fair amount which is confusing because that implys that grinding is defined by the gamer but then she uses solid examples as to what grinding is which she presents as fact not opinion.

For example quests, many quests are similar or even identical except for requiring you to collect slightly different items so its got the repetitive part and what is or isn't entertaining is based on the user. This means that that anything repetitive can be considered grinding because it has met all the requirements in the definition, repetitiveness, boring to that individual and gains progress in the game.

here are a list of things that can fit into that definition of grinding
most quests, testing out new decks, trying to beat a difficult god, raising you win/lose ratio, posting in a forum, getting gold, getting new cards, building a trainer, checking data to put on the elements wiki page etc

Of course this is an exaggeration but if grinding is to be presented as objective as opposed to subjective then every possibility needs to be included and there are alot of possibilities

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:15 pm »

Or a diffent wheel we pay ~700 to use, and it may upgrade a radom card in your deck

Or you could make it that when you won a match there would be a reel of every card in your deck and if you get three in a row then that card gets upgraded   

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:15 pm »

What Forfeit is saying makes sense, this topic is supposed to be about upgrading prices not grinding. This makes the level of grinding within elements valid but grinding as a whole and its place in the gaming world not relevant to this particular topic.

We were so close to actually moving away from the discussion of grinding but Scaredgirl rose to Lynxions bait and used to opportunity to give her opinion on grinding... again.
You know that it is possible to ignore someone without the help of an ignore button? Just a suggestion ^^

I think making different upgrade prices for each card sounds like a good idea. The price for each card in the bazaar has been chosen pretty well to reflect the usefulness of that particular card so i think basing the upgrade prices on how much the card costs seems like a step in the right direction

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:13 pm »

Scaredgirl your not really being much better then Lynxion now just taking personal shots at him because he didn't agree with you but i do understand you taking his comments personally since most of your argument has been 'this is my opinion and you must agree!'

It's just not polite to go on forums then call others stupid and nuts because they have different opinions then your own, unless your intent was to cause a reaction like this cause its true that nothing gets people all offended and wanting to argue back then having their own views personally insulted, rather then constructively criticised.

Also saying that people hate it doesn't really mean that it fails the serve a function, it just means that there is too much of it. The gaming comunity is currently flooded with grinding in such a way that they only realise they are grinding when then are resenting it. The time before they are resenting it, when its just a progression towards a goal is lost and forgotten the second you start getting irritated with it.

Scaredgirl you admit that your views are based on your own gaming experience so please accept that others have their own experience and that you are tainted by personal opinion just like the rest of the world so final judgments like 'nobody likes this' and 'everyone hates that' are a bit premature.

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

p.s. That Einstein quote was a joke that you and the other guy took seriously. I doubt Einstein was talking about online grinding when he made that one up..

Uhh just wanna say in my defence there that i don't think anyone thought that Einstein was talking about grinding in any shape or form and i knew it was meant to have humor behind it, just that the quote has the exact opposite meaning to what the sentence was implying, ie that grinding can be connected in any way to repeating the action and expecting different results and its weird to see that without satirical implications unless it was misused

Yeah sorry Lynxion your argument is pretty flawed there. You are pointing out things that are not grinding and implying that they are. Its also possible to excuse yourself from the debate without insulting others

I think defining things would have helped if we were going to continue this discussion because i think Scaredgirl has a slightly skewed view on grinding and what part it plays in gaming but if we go that far into depth we will likely only create more confusion and misunderstandings

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

Nobody (except apparently you) likes to grind

*sigh* it makes me sad when people refuse to consider the point of another person. I have said that your point is valid in every way and merely wanted to mention that there is other points of view but you seem so secure in your knowledge that you intimately know everyone in this world and that you cannot possibly be wrong so i guess that was pointless.

I absolutely agree that grinding without point is something that only addicted gamers do. Grinding, like everything should only be done when it gives enough joy to the person who is doing it, maybe at the end or maybe in intermediate points when they restructure their grinding methods.

I have no objection to improving this game, nor to dislike grinding. I just felt it was worth mentioning that sometimes additional effort can make the reward even greater. If you don't believe me see how many gamers set themselves horribly difficult challenges that including grinding in order to 'master' a game. Many of them would tell you that the victory would not have been as sweet if they could simply have skipped to the end with the click of a button.

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

Yeah i apologise for getting into a argument with Scaredgirl i respect his/her skill but as we have both shown its hard to bite your tongue when you see someone completely misinterpret what you said and then quote it with a counter argument as i have seen her do with several with my quotes and probably what has happened with some of mine. In fact in that last message she appears to be complaining about misinterpreting her message while at the same time misinterpreting my own

The Einstein quote kinda hurt too cause i really like that quote so to see it misused here didn't feel good. Though it was probably meant differently from how it came off. This conversation may have been drastically different in person and has been diluted through the forums limited ability to communicate opinion.

I just want to say that i think elements is a great game. Not perfect but in my opinion its way better then games with more developers and greater funding

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

I said you are not always having fun. The process is still enjoyable, organising and finding the best method of doing things can be very fun, although a do admit our current culture of 'want entertainment now' seems to be incapable of patience.

I don't like it when people label what i do as brainwashing from gaming developers, game developers discovered that people are willing to commit to things and see them through to the end even if they stop having fun at one point and its the responsibility of the gamer to know when he has reached that point. But to stop the minute to find a part of the game where you are not having fun? that like giving up at the first challenge because you got annoyed that you couldn't get past it on the first try.

I try to maximise the amount of enjoyment in my life which does sometimes mean taking the duller option in order for the greater payoff in the end.
I shudder to think what the world would be like if people dropped their entertainment the minute they realised they needed to invest time and well as skill in order to receive benefits

Albert Einstein had no opinion of grinding at all. Grinding has a set progress rate and you expect to go forward at that rate. If you are grinding then you are not expecting different results but consistent results, which is the exact opposite of that quote. In grinding you are doing the same thing (matches) in order to get the same result (money)

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General Discussion / I think upgrade prices are too...

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:09 pm »

i agree with scaredgirl in that there is some games that have hours of entertainment with no grinding but i think the problem here is that you are looking for different things.

Like life there are things that are entertainment from beginning to end, these things usually are the appreciation of others efforts like movies and outings. Then there are hobbies which are a form of entertainment that usually contains grinding, these are usually constructing things, for example working with wood or metal to make something.

There is entertainment value in both, some like to have a high level of entertainment throughout their activity and want to skip the boring bits and just have fun. Others enjoy watching their chosen task grow, the continues grinding towards achieving your goal then the satisfaction of seeing it completed.

I've had this argument with people who don't understand why i would spend hours upon hours sanding wood so i can make cabinets and things when i could just buy one from the store or buy a belt sander to make it faster. Simply put some people enjoy the journey and they are content to invest the time to achieve their goal. Even though they are not exactly 'having fun' the whole time they like to watch the progress and the satisfaction of a completed task.

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General Discussion / Epic fail by Flying Rainbow

« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:08 pm »

Yeah that would cause a bit of a problem. I've never had a computer use a weapon over the top of another weapon before but thats a pretty big hole in the flying weapon strategy if he does.

Oh and i know that this god has some major flaws in the basic deck design i just thought it was funny that he could lose to a starter deck which doesn't have any sort of advanced strategy