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Elements the Game => PvP Event Archive => PvP Events => Events and Competitions => Grid => Topic started by: Gyrodiot on June 17, 2011, 09:28:11 am

Title: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Gyrodiot on June 17, 2011, 09:28:11 am
After Round 5 launch and some players' requests, here is the S&F thread of Grid. I initially planned to open it by Round 7, but it's never too early.

Some information on the organization :

Yes, all Events were planned from the beginning. I came up with 2 Events at first (Rounds 5 and 10), then TStar suggested to have one every round. You know what happened ^^

The "least number of Relics" reward after forfeit is something I'd like to improve. I came up with this, considering that a forfeit winner can't win more Relics than a "regular" one, and giving a refund on Relics spent. I'm sure there's a better way to deal with forfeits, but theorically they shouldn't even exist :P

Well, feel free to post your reviews and improvement ideas :)
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: The_Mormegil on June 17, 2011, 10:01:32 am
We need a Grid Picks Phase; apart from that, this is awesome. :)
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Seraph on June 17, 2011, 10:22:58 am
I agree, or atleast increase the number of days to do stuff by one
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Gyrodiot on June 17, 2011, 10:53:44 am
8 rounds of 4 days instead of 10 rounds of 3 day may be the solution.

The problem is the scheduling. 2/2 days for picking and dueling is too short for duels. 1/3 days, it's too short for picking. 2/3 days would be perfect, but 6 rounds of 5 days are not enough (debatable).
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: The_Mormegil on June 17, 2011, 12:11:28 pm
I think this could go on for one month and a half...
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Seraph on June 17, 2011, 12:35:01 pm
My idea of 4 days is that we have the same pick and duel at the same time phase
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: kev on June 17, 2011, 01:30:23 pm
I'm personally very happy with the current timetable of 10 * 3-day rounds.

I'd also like to note that despite my colossal failure so far this has been one of the most fun events I've entered.

The "least number of Relics" reward after forfeit is something I'd like to improve. I came up with this, considering that a forfeit winner can't win more Relics than a "regular" one, and giving a refund on Relics spent. I'm sure there's a better way to deal with forfeits, but theorically they shouldn't even exist :P
You're right that there's no good solution.  We can't go by the player's picks because players could just send in an all-relic Grid when he senses opposition forfeting.  Giving a player the max relics of all winners unfairly rewards because he might have lost, but giving a player the min relics of all winners unfairly penalizes because he might have won.

Maybe the solution is to use the average relics won of all winners including relics won from the round event.  It seems wrong to exclude relics won from the round event because the player might've intended to participate in the event but was robbed of the opportunity.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: coinich on June 18, 2011, 01:06:53 am
I like kev's idea.  Grid is awesomely fun, but it does suck like in the cell round.  I had quite a potential buildup of relics I never got; an average would've been nicer.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: ddevans96 on June 18, 2011, 01:34:57 am
I agree with an average value. Last round someone could have gotten ripped off 13 relics or so, but they also might not have won at all. An average would balance out the possibilities somewhat.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: SteppingStone81 on June 18, 2011, 03:25:41 am
Sending in picks before the round does the following:

1.  Prevents boring copying of decks / grid choices.
2.  Allows each player's relic choices to be used even if they win by forfeit

The drawback obviously is that this adds a little administrative burden - might not be worth it?
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Calindu on June 18, 2011, 10:39:11 am
Post only result until all people send picks?
Will be an good idea,actually not too much people can play 1 month and half
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: The_Mormegil on June 18, 2011, 10:42:40 am
Post only result until all people send picks?
Will be an good idea,actually not too much people can play 1 month and half
About this, how about making a selection? Kind of Budokan style, and this applies to all long events.

Say an Event would go on for two months instead of one. Instead of having two flat out months and all dropouts etc. you can have a one-month phase, a system to eliminate about half to three quarters of players and the rest of the Event goes on from that. Also, if somebody lost interest and doesn't want to play or something, you can pass on to the next best player without Parasites at this moment. This is kind of general feedback, not only for Grid, but could apply here too.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Calindu on June 19, 2011, 08:28:18 am
Post only result until all people send picks?
Will be an good idea,actually not too much people can play 1 month and half
About this, how about making a selection? Kind of Budokan style, and this applies to all long events.

Say an Event would go on for two months instead of one. Instead of having two flat out months and all dropouts etc. you can have a one-month phase, a system to eliminate about half to three quarters of players and the rest of the Event goes on from that. Also, if somebody lost interest and doesn't want to play or something, you can pass on to the next best player without Parasites at this moment. This is kind of general feedback, not only for Grid, but could apply here too.
Erm...i would say not a lot people can play 2 months,i can play until 14 July,so...2 months=i need a sub.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: coinich on June 19, 2011, 01:49:32 pm
I too prefer our 3 day format.  Howsabout this:  you gain 2 extra relics if you turn in your picks within the first day, 1 relic within the second day, and 0 relics within the third day?
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: truddy02 on June 19, 2011, 04:59:57 pm
I just want to say this has been such a great event and very well done.  I like the round length as it moves along fairly quickly and still gives time to get your matches done without much problem.  I think coinich has a good idea to encourage early picking.  This event has been a lot of fun and run very well.  My thanks to Gyro who has come up with some interesting round events and kept this running smoothly the whole time.  I also think you have proven that if you set hard deadlines for getting matches done and stick to them that most matches are going to get done in this time.  I was the last person to sign up because I was contemplating whether I wanted to play or not and I am very glad I decided to play because this has been such a fun event with lots of strategy and creative deckbuilding.  Gyro has been a great event organizer and I would be glad to play in any event you run in the future.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: kirchj33 on June 20, 2011, 02:31:05 am
I reiterate what Truddy says 100%.  This has easily been the most fun event I have ever participated in.

I think there is a small problem with decks not being due until after some matches are posted.  This may be an unavoidable problem for grid #2, and it seems a deckbuilding phase is not the solution in the interest of time.  I fear this will be abused at some point without any chance to police it.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: SteppingStone81 on June 20, 2011, 08:31:38 am
Best option: just send the decks to the event organizer, and he will post results after the round is complete.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: kirchj33 on June 20, 2011, 12:40:18 pm
Best option: just send the decks to the event organizer, and he will post results after the round is complete.
o.O I like this.  Good thinking!  He already has a ton of work to do with this event, but this shouldn't take too terribly long to do.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Gyrodiot on June 20, 2011, 01:01:53 pm
Actually, Grid organization involves a lot of tasks that are not terribly long to do. However, if you sum all of them... That's long. For every round, I have no less than 9 files to generate :

Round post itself, with the event.
Grid
HTML version of the Grid
Cards waiting queue
Matchups
Picks
Corresponding cards
Targets
Cards that disappear due to targeting

Most of the processing involves copy-paste, regular expressions and triple-checking. I could have prepared some programs to make the job easier, but I chose to enter the data manually and not force a precise formatting for your PM.

Hopefully next time I'll be even more prepared ;)
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: RavingRabbid on June 21, 2011, 10:40:02 am
The biggest problem I have with grid is: I am 0-4. If I lose this round too, I'll have no chance to play and win the whole event. Maybe I'll win a match or two. But knowing you're going to get hammered every match is not really fun. I'd already have quat the event, if there weren't parasites, because at a certain point it becomes just frustration.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: The_Mormegil on June 21, 2011, 10:54:28 am
The biggest problem I have with grid is: I am 0-4. If I lose this round too, I'll have no chance to play and win the whole event. Maybe I'll win a match or two. But knowing you're going to get hammered every match is not really fun. I'd already have quat the event, if there weren't parasites, because at a certain point it becomes just frustration.
This is a problem I can see with most events. Parasites punish people who drop out, but what about people who have little to no chance of winning? That sucks a lot, and I can see people dropping out for that... Maybe if two people agree to drop out, they can ask Event Organizer about it? That way there's no bye issue...
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Gyrodiot on June 21, 2011, 11:57:43 am
A way to solve this would be the auto-elimination of the last 3-4 players every round starting from the 3rd or 4th Round.

To make such drops happen for the current Grid... it's theorically possible, but I need other players' advice.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: kirchj33 on June 21, 2011, 03:29:54 pm
I think that would be ok.  I can see forfeits of matchups with these players as potentially ruining the event for leaders as well because missing a game with a disinterested player could affect one's chances of winning the event as well.  Would this totally screw up the grid and relics that are being put on it if people begin to be eliminated?
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Gyrodiot on June 21, 2011, 04:07:10 pm
With some adaptation of the Target system, nothing I can't handle.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: SteppingStone81 on July 05, 2011, 09:24:59 pm
I've been thinking a bit about the problem of forfeits (win or lose) impacting the event and came up with the following possibilities to level the playing field:

1.  Normalize the number of relics won per round
    The range of relics won could be scaled to a fixed scale, e.g. highest total always gets 10 relics
Advantage:  Each round has similar importance - currently a tough victory one round might be worth only 4 relics while another round someone can get 20 relics with reasonably strong decksAdvantage:  Forfeit wins could get some reasonable total, such as 6 relicsDrawback:  The capped max relics does not reward risky Grids as much[/list]

2.  Give bonus relics (win or lose) for "using" the event
    In many rounds, it has been advantageous to ignore the event and just grab as many relics as possible with solid grid picks
Advantage:  Encouraging people to use the events each round will result in greater variety of decks each roundDrawback:  Some events, such as dispersion, work less well if there is no cost to using it[/list]

3.  Give each players 2-3 relics income each round
    Each player gains 2-3 relics income each round which they can spend on upgrades, spend on event abilities, or just hoard
Advantage:  Players who have lost in the early rounds would still be able to use upgrades and/or the event[/list]
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Seraph on July 05, 2011, 09:44:23 pm
I really like ideas 2 and 3, but idea 1 is part of the game,
personally, I have been taking relatively smart, but risky picks from round 3/4 to try and catch up, I've managed to atleast have a small chance at winning, if all the leaders lose, etc...
As you can see, my POV is heavily biased, because I've been a risk taker in this event, but you understand don't you?
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: SteppingStone81 on July 06, 2011, 01:59:01 am
I really like ideas 2 and 3, but idea 1 is part of the game,
personally, I have been taking relatively smart, but risky picks from round 3/4 to try and catch up, I've managed to atleast have a small chance at winning, if all the leaders lose, etc...
As you can see, my POV is heavily biased, because I've been a risk taker in this event, but you understand don't you?
I guess idea #1 as I first worded it wasn't really normalizing relic ranges across rounds but winsorizing at 10 relics.  That's not what I wanted, so let me try again:

It makes sense to allow risk-taking, but the problem could arise next round that someone has a 15 relic lead, but there is no way to win >= 15 relics from the board.  This is because some past rounds have been much more lucrative than others.  In a future event, one might be able to rescale relics across rounds (but not cut off risky Grids within a round):  still rewarding successful risk, but making sure that a big risk in one round pays out similarly to a big risk in a later round.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: TStar on December 20, 2011, 07:15:56 pm
Grid #2 is tentatively scheduled to begin on February 10th, 2012.  Look for a sign-up thread to be posted sometime between February 1st and then.
Title: Re: Grid - Suggestions and Feedback
Post by: Onizuka on February 26, 2012, 11:45:02 pm
I wouldn't mind people who send in picks getting +1 relic for each time they send a correct pick.
blarg: