Post by: GG on March 27, 2011, 11:02:14 pm
You have run out of time to Complete your Opening Vault.
Penalty for failure. 12 cards.
If you Fail, ... best not fail.
Post by: jmdt on March 28, 2011, 12:36:28 am
Assuming you can still pick any cards you want, I'd like for 6 nova and 6 flying weapon.
6 nova will allow for an extra novagrabby/novavoodoo and flying will let us use a 3rd cat titan deck.
The 6 nova are a definite. The 6 flying are up for discussion as we dig further into vault building.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 01, 2011, 11:18:42 pm
4~6 of them...
judging from war 2, a majority of decks involve graboids..
Post by: jmdt on April 03, 2011, 02:20:47 am
Post by: thatnewguy on April 03, 2011, 02:52:08 am
Just some starting thoughts.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 03, 2011, 03:09:25 am
gravity should be able to do wonderful things with them
Post by: thatnewguy on April 03, 2011, 03:49:41 am
Post by: jmdt on April 03, 2011, 04:02:42 am
Things we need.
PC: pulvy, deflag and steal are our options here.
CC: We have gravity pull, but that's not really the best CC. We need instakill stuff like lightning, ragepot, fire bolt, etc.
Rainbows: Having cards to utilize novas are a must, especially later in war.
Cards that have good synergy with gravity cards: voodoo doll, adrenaline, animate weapon, earthquake, discord. We need to find what we do best and make sure we have that covered.
Anti-elements cards: I'm a big fan of playing our best decks rather than trying to pack a vault of counters, but there are a few cards/decks that complete shut down other opponents that we should definately examine. I've lost a share of war duels packing holy lights and purifies so I'm not a huge fan of rolling such 1 trick ponies. Cards like wings, fire shield, reverse time are uniquely effective versus certain elements and should be explored.
Extra quanta generators: Ultimately we will lose duels, we need a stash of extra pillars/pends to make sure we can keep fielding good decks no matter what happens.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 03, 2011, 04:05:50 am
lightning, shockwave, BB, arsenic, chaos seed, deflagration, freeze, and RT
discords are also kinda nice
Post by: jmdt on April 03, 2011, 04:52:55 am
So that makes our starting vault 500 - 49 = 451 cards
With the propaganda bonus, this raises our vault to 451 + 12 = 463 cards
To put this in more understandable terms, that is 15.433 30 card decks.
So we have a few options based on how many decks (assuming 30 cards) we want versus spare cards:
We can roll 11 decks and have 133 spare cards.
We can roll 12 decks and have 103 spare cards.
We can roll 13 decks and have 73 spare cards.
Depending how agressive/conservative we want to be the 11-13 card deck range is prolly what we should shoot for.
Post by: thatnewguy on April 03, 2011, 04:56:26 am
So, on that note, I say 10-11 decks of a mixture of stall and 30 card decks to really optimize our abilities to play whatever is nessecary. Our filler cards can be our back-up aggression/defensive cards to what we fall back on when times are rough.
But, now we need to really focus on what we want to play as either against our element (offensive with rush) or with our element (defensive with stalls) or a mixture of both. This will heavily affect our starting vault.
Discuss.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 03, 2011, 05:19:21 am
type A ruthless rushing > stall > type B rushtall (rush with control) > type A ruthless rushing...
so... 12, 4 of each category?
Post by: GG on April 03, 2011, 06:07:33 pm
well, assume this:No. I'd like to have more rushes as most people would not expect rushes from gravity. I'll be on docs chat the entire day, and we'll make the vault once some people get there.
type A ruthless rushing > stall > type B rushtall (rush with control) > type A ruthless rushing...
so... 12, 4 of each category?
Post by: GG on April 03, 2011, 09:03:41 pm
Fractal charger (gen)
Quint fireeater trio
Cat titans (x2)
Voodoo acceleration
Nova grabby (Bhole)
Nova grabby (charger) x2
Antimatter stall
Blessed oty
Taters over easy (gen/lt)
Ghosts /oty
Post by: GG on April 03, 2011, 09:17:09 pm
Post by: thatnewguy on April 04, 2011, 01:51:35 am
Fractal chargers
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55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 61o 61o 61o 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 622 622 745 745 745 745 745 80iQuinted Fire eaters
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55k 55k 55k 55q 55q 55q 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 576 576 576 576 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61o 61t 61t 61t 61t 61t 621 621 621Catapult titans
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55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55s 55s 55s 55s 55s 55s 561 561 561 561 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi 5oi (x2)Nova grabby
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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 52q 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55l 55l 55l 55l 55q 55q 55v 55v 576 576 590 590 590 590 590 5og 61qAM stall
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4vi 4vi 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 4vn 55m 55m 55m 55m 55m 55m 55t 55t 55t 562 562 562 562 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576Blessed Oty (Om nom nom)
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55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55l 55l 55l 55l 55r 55r 55r 55r 576 576 576 576 576 5ld 5ld 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 5lf 5li 5liSecond nova grabby
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4vh 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 4vj 55k 55k 55k 55q 55q 55s 55s 55t 55t 55t 55t 55u 576 576 576 590 590 590 590 590 5c1 5og 61q (maybe -1 spirit +1 grabby?)Immophoenix
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4vh 55k 55k 55k 55t 55t 55t 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 576 576 576 5c1 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fa 5fa 5fa 5fc 5fc 5og 61qGhastly nightly feeders
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55q 55q 55q 55q 55q 55r 55r 55r 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5ru 5ru 5ru 5ru 5ruOty Stalkers
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52g 52g 52g 52g 52q 52q 52r 52r 52r 52r 52u 52u 52u 55k 55k 55k 55q 55q 55q 55q 55r 55r 55r 576 576 576 576 576 576 576Discord/BH
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4vc 4vc 4vc 4ve 4ve 4ve 4vf 4vf 4vl 4vl 4vl 4vl 50u 50u 50u 55k 55k 55t 55t 55t 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 576 576 576 576 576Voodoo Accel v2
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55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55m 55m 55m 55t 55t 55t 55t 55t 562 562 562 562 562 5ur 5ur 5v0 5v0 5v0 5v0 5v0With this we have EXACTLY 69 (hardy har har) cards left. This means we can take the guts for 3 other 30 card decks or just take cards that give more synergies that we can make decks based on what decks are listed above. I say we take 2 decks and with our remaining 30~ cards or so take synergy cards that will really make us fly in later rounds.
Discuss. I will update the vault tomorrow whenever I get home from work.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 04, 2011, 02:00:27 am
considering how often grabbies will be used, I think some wings will be good
Post by: thatnewguy on April 04, 2011, 02:02:18 am
no wings...We have 69 left over cards, maybe take wings?
considering how often grabbies will be used, I think some wings will be good
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 04, 2011, 02:08:38 am
that's what I meant, take some wings with the 69 cards we have left overno wings...We have 69 left over cards, maybe take wings?
considering how often grabbies will be used, I think some wings will be good
and aside from that... some more gravity pillars/pends?
Post by: TStar on April 04, 2011, 07:05:09 am
Fractal charger, Quint Fire Eater, Cat Titans are all keepers. These suckers are proven and powerful. Novagrabby works, although I think we should settle on the version that works best instead of trying to use two. Blessed Oty and Voodoo Accel v2 are both solid situationally. These decks can work.
Then there are decks I'm not sold on. The AM deck looks like a loser to be honestly. I don't see it rolling AM fast enough to keep up with most decks damage. It might work but I'm just not sold on a shieldless stall nor a deck that relies on no momentumed creatures to get enough damage. Immophoenix is a disaster waiting to happen. Barring an outstanding draw you realistically won't even be able to use your first immo until the 3rd turn, and that's assuming you haven't been Discorded or outrushed already. If we play this deck we'll have to get a very favorable matchup to avoid losing badly. Ghastly night feeders I despise. 0|3 Otys are junk and I don't see many teams being stupid enough to give up 1 and 2 HP critters to feed on. No we have some momentum to try and pump us up and GotP+RT but no Eternity's. This deck just doesn't seem to work as is and would probably be better as a Dune Scorp deck with Eternity's. But by far the worst deck is Oty Stalkers. 4 Momentum to power 6 creatures, and a complete reliance on otys eating to maintain any semblence of life and bone wall size. I can't even think of many decks that would be strong against honestly.
What I'm seeing are a bunch of decks that will get crushed by a speed poison deck or a neurotoxin/RT deck. Why have we completely ignored a deck type that almost every element used last war? We don't have any purifies or counters really. I'm also very confused about how we've completely ignored the most powerful synergy we have in earth. Why don't we have any Pulvy decks? Where are the EQ/BH decks? Why are we ignoring the powerful Gravity Shield/BB combo? Heck, we could put a Warden stall to amazing effect if we tried! I feel like we are throwing away our strengths to try and be novel, but new and different isn't always better. I see tons of people every weekend in the tournies trying to do something new and complex, and it works on occasion. But the winning decks, especially for me, always seem to be the ones who keep it simple and play to the established strengths. It's ok to roll something new and throw a curveball from time-to-time, but it's not ok to completely ditch the reliable fastballs in the process.
We have 1 day to really decide if these new decks are better than the simple and reliable ones already out there. Think about it people, because I'm really starting to think we are setting ourselves up for failure right now with some of these choices. Anyways, that's just my 2 cents.
Post by: jmdt on April 04, 2011, 07:43:31 am
Not really sure how to say this tactfully so I'll be blunt......I really hate the fault posted here. I see a ton of broken decks. I see us ignoring obvious synergies that are proven strong and effective. I see lots of bad losses in many of these decks.I agree with most of this.
Fractal charger, Quint Fire Eater, Cat Titans are all keepers. These suckers are proven and powerful. Novagrabby works, although I think we should settle on the version that works best instead of trying to use two. Blessed Oty and Voodoo Accel v2 are both solid situationally. These decks can work.
Then there are decks I'm not sold on. The AM deck looks like a loser to be honestly. I don't see it rolling AM fast enough to keep up with most decks damage. It might work but I'm just not sold on a shieldless stall nor a deck that relies on no momentumed creatures to get enough damage. Immophoenix is a disaster waiting to happen. Barring an outstanding draw you realistically won't even be able to use your first immo until the 3rd turn, and that's assuming you haven't been Discorded or outrushed already. If we play this deck we'll have to get a very favorable matchup to avoid losing badly. Ghastly night feeders I despise. 0|3 Otys are junk and I don't see many teams being stupid enough to give up 1 and 2 HP critters to feed on. No we have some momentum to try and pump us up and GotP+RT but no Eternity's. This deck just doesn't seem to work as is and would probably be better as a Dune Scorp deck with Eternity's. But by far the worst deck is Oty Stalkers. 4 Momentum to power 6 creatures, and a complete reliance on otys eating to maintain any semblence of life and bone wall size. I can't even think of many decks that would be strong against honestly.
What I'm seeing are a bunch of decks that will get crushed by a speed poison deck or a neurotoxin/RT deck. Why have we completely ignored a deck type that almost every element used last war? We don't have any purifies or counters really. I'm also very confused about how we've completely ignored the most powerful synergy we have in earth. Why don't we have any Pulvy decks? Where are the EQ/BH decks? Why are we ignoring the powerful Gravity Shield/BB combo? Heck, we could put a Warden stall to amazing effect if we tried! I feel like we are throwing away our strengths to try and be novel, but new and different isn't always better. I see tons of people every weekend in the tournies trying to do something new and complex, and it works on occasion. But the winning decks, especially for me, always seem to be the ones who keep it simple and play to the established strengths. It's ok to roll something new and throw a curveball from time-to-time, but it's not ok to completely ditch the reliable fastballs in the process.
We have 1 day to really decide if these new decks are better than the simple and reliable ones already out there. Think about it people, because I'm really starting to think we are setting ourselves up for failure right now with some of these choices. Anyways, that's just my 2 cents.
I don't like unupped oty's that much. The immophoenix is way to inconsistant. The desthstalker deck looks to seriously lack damage with 4 stalkers for attackers. The GotP deck definately works, but I'm not so sure about the oty support. The deck is strong versus immo or nova decks, but the stalkers must be buffed to eat a shrieker. I know the dune scorpion deck is effective versus several entropy decks, maybe we should explore that more. and yes, 1 uniform novagrabby version will make thing 100% easier.
I also think we need atleast 2 earth duos. Earth in one of the best synergies we have and I'm always a fan of using our strongest decks and making them beat us. Pulvy is an absolute must for our arsenal and we need a few decks built around it to really maximive our efforts. Earthquake, warden + momentum, grav shield + BB, cat + BB, armor + oty. All ideas we should explare before we settle on a final vault.
I'd also like to roll a wings deck as it rolls over several elements when used at the right time. I like dragon blitz, but that doesn't seem to be a popular choice.
Post by: Captain Scibra on April 04, 2011, 10:50:51 am
Also, the vault started at 480, as I have last read in the What will be different in War 3 thread, so we have 480-49+12=443 cards space.
Post by: GG on April 04, 2011, 11:52:51 am
Fractal chargers (General only) x1
Quinted Fireeaters x1
Catapult Titans
Novagrabby Bhole version x2
Voodoo acceleration x1
Adding new decks (haven't been completely designed yet; mostly copied from last war):
Deathstalker (note : probably modify it to make it bonewall based)
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52g 52g 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52q 52q 52u 52u 52u 52u 52u 52u 55k 55k 55k 55k 55m 55m 55q 55q 55q 55q 55q 576 576 576 576Neurotoxin
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55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55l 55l 55l 55l 55q 55q 55q 55q 55q 576 576 576 576 576 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rk 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rt 5rtAdrenamercs (probably gonna be general/Lt use only though)
Immophoenix
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55m 55m 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 576 5f6 5f6 5f8 5f8 5f9 5f9 5fc 5fc 5fc 5fc(some sort of EQ/warden deck; we will pack pulvy as extra cards)
(some sort of wings deck)
Extra cards to pack:
:darkness Devourer, steal
:earth Pulvy, warden
:entropy moar discords, novas
:death arsenics
:gravity titans, accels
:life ?
:fire deflags
:water freezes, MAYBE purify
:light holy lights, blessings
:air shockwave, fog, wings
:time RT
:aether lightning, moar phase shields
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 04, 2011, 01:29:58 pm
momentum oty has 4 hp, shrieker has 3...
could be useful if we pick up just a few otys, they can be used by GG and jimmy too (upgraded)
Post by: thatnewguy on April 04, 2011, 01:34:34 pm
Stalkers/poison can be used, but it would be best served as a lt/master deck in order to do something to keep bonewalls up. Or we can forget otys and completely make bonewall a stall while keeping poison up and moving. We had a nuerotoxin deck, but in the tests me and jimmy did, it was so fail we can't eve consider it. It works against magor stalls, but that's about it. Adrenamercs(garuds) can be used effectively, but we can mod it better to really show how effective one of those decks can be.
Ok, we need to STAY AWAY FROM IMMOLATION. We cannot effectively use this damn card, our best fire deck, atm, is something Raging Fire eater Damnation.
As for an EQ deck, here are my results:
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55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55o 55o 55o 55o 55s 55s 576 576 576 576 576 576 58o 58o 58o 58s 58s 593 593 593 593 593 594 594 596 596 596 596 5aa 5aa Someone else can probably do better than this here, it might be an influx of gravity quantum. You might exchange more pillars for pends (gravity) in order to get the earth part up and moving.My base build for a stalker deck that uses bonewall and poison + armagio. Yes, it rolls 7 critters, but it also rolls 2 arsenic and 5 poison, so I think it compensates for itself:
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52g 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52q 52q 52r 52r 52r 52u 52u 52u 542 55k 55k 55k 55k 55m 55m 55m 55m 55q 55q 55q 576 576 576 576As for wings, I made this:Code: [Select]
55k 55k 55k 55n 55n 55n 55q 55q 55q 562 562 562 576 576 576 5oc 5oc 5oc 5oe 5oe 5oe 5ol 5ol 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5oo 5pu 5puIt's effective against the AI, but I know hatred on GG on mercs, so it can be a lt deck. It still works unupped just as well, but if we went lt with it we can probably used 3 chargers instead for base damage.I seriously hate the that we'll roll a nuerotoxin deck, in my studies that deck gets absolutely murdered by anything under a 10 ttw, it just doesn't have the power to get up and moving quickly. As for the "unupped oty hate" the thing is not to feed off things that are under 3 hp, but to buff 1 oty and feed off OTHER otys in order to get that head start. Perhaps they still suck, idk. But TStar already posted us an earth/gravity deck using shield/BB/pulvy, so we can think about taking that into the vault as well.
Post by: TStar on April 04, 2011, 06:23:00 pm
One other important thing to consider with oty's is that lots of people will utilize graboids, and otys are a poor CC for graboids because any competent PvPer will just keep them buried and wait to evolve them for the OTK. That means against any grabby deck we need to have enough damage from other sources to outrace graboid/immo/rush decks to the kill before they get into OTK territory and drop/evolve 40+ damage in a single turn on us.
But basically without quint otys are very unreliable imo as a stall card. I feel Wardens are strong just because it forces teams to choose between using their CC on the Warden, or using it on our creatures, and at 1 :earth to play and 1 :earth to Guard they are very cheap and useful both in stalling the enemy, or stopping your own creautures if they get hit with AM.
And 100% agree with tng, NO IMMOLATION! Unupped it's just terrible for us. It can possibly work as a General deck but even then it's a pretty weak deck capable on a perfect draw of a 6 turn win but mostly in the 8-9 range which is just too slow for immo. It may have the appearances of a rush, but the actual playing speed simply isn't up to true rush standards, making it a very weak delay rush option at best.
Post by: Captain Scibra on April 04, 2011, 06:34:58 pm
Post by: TStar on April 04, 2011, 07:43:11 pm
Post by: jmdt on April 04, 2011, 07:48:14 pm
Just had another strange thought but, should we try to standardize our mark as much as possible? If we only use 1 deck for a given Mark won't that let a smart team know exactly what to expect from us before playing even the first game during later rounds? If you know the deck that's coming that first game it can be a huge edge.Having multiple decks of a mark helps in a second area too. Once decks start to fall apart, it makes it easier to fit pieces together to make a second junk deck.
Post by: GG on April 04, 2011, 08:09:25 pm
2. I don't see how that deathstalker deck would work with solely 3 stalkers, but I'll believe in your testings.
3. Earth deck is great.
Let's meet at around 11PM~1AM GMT today in docs chat to finalize the vault. I won't be sleeping in this time...
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 04, 2011, 08:35:18 pm
1. Fine. screw neurotoxin.some of us need our sleep...
2. I don't see how that deathstalker deck would work with solely 3 stalkers, but I'll believe in your testings.
3. Earth deck is great.
Let's meet at around 11PM~1AM GMT today in docs chat to finalize the vault. I won't be sleeping in this time...
Post by: jmdt on April 04, 2011, 08:37:39 pm
Sleep is overrated.1. Fine. screw neurotoxin.some of us need our sleep...
2. I don't see how that deathstalker deck would work with solely 3 stalkers, but I'll believe in your testings.
3. Earth deck is great.
Let's meet at around 11PM~1AM GMT today in docs chat to finalize the vault. I won't be sleeping in this time...
Post by: thatnewguy on April 04, 2011, 08:41:42 pm
Damn straight.Sleep is overrated.1. Fine. screw neurotoxin.some of us need our sleep...
2. I don't see how that deathstalker deck would work with solely 3 stalkers, but I'll believe in your testings.
3. Earth deck is great.
Let's meet at around 11PM~1AM GMT today in docs chat to finalize the vault. I won't be sleeping in this time...
Post by: GG on April 04, 2011, 09:21:44 pm
some of us need our sleep...gah this is the reason why the entire Earth should unite with one time zone.
Post by: GG on April 04, 2011, 11:31:26 pm
Quint fireeater trio
Cat titans (x2)
Voodoo acceleration
Nova grabby (Bhole) x2
Antimatter stall
Deathstalker
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52g 52o 52o 52o 52o 52o 52q 52q 52r 52r 52r 52u 52u 52u 542 55k 55k 55k 55k 55m 55m 55m 55m 55q 55q 55q 576 576 576 576Fireeater
Discord/BH
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4vc 4vc 4vc 4ve 4ve 4ve 4vf 4vf 4vl 4vl 4vl 4vl 50u 50u 50u 55k 55k 55t 55t 55t 55v 55v 55v 55v 55v 576 576 576 576 576Earth stall
Accel dragon blitz
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 04, 2011, 11:39:37 pm
Code: [Select]
55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55p 55p 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 595 595 595 595 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fa 5fa 5faI didn't have much time, so the pillar/BB and immo ratio might need tweaking, but it was pretty nice in my testing
Post by: GG on April 05, 2011, 12:31:57 am
There's 24 card conversion for every round. This means we don't actually have to pack extra pillars/pends, but take ALL fillers and convert only when necessary. However, in case 3+ people lose, we'll take 10 extra of each.
:gravity
4 Otyugh
6 pillah
6 pends
4 charger
2 armagio
:fire
2 deflag
:life
5 Adrenaline
:aether
4 lightning
:water
2 freeze
4 purify
:time
2 Reverse time
:darkness
5 LS
4 dolls
:earth
1 auburn nymph
6 warden
5 EQ
3 pulvy
Post by: jmdt on April 05, 2011, 01:02:43 am
Post by: thatnewguy on April 05, 2011, 02:37:41 am
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 05, 2011, 02:39:17 am
Vault is perfect, nobody touch it.*touches vault*
the bank vault, in RL
Post by: TStar on April 05, 2011, 02:50:25 am
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 05, 2011, 02:55:28 am
What an ordeal that turned out to be. TNG said it best, Entropy fucking with us before the war even starts lollol
the chaos...
Post by: einherjar145 on April 05, 2011, 11:44:13 am
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on April 05, 2011, 12:57:49 pm
Sorry i couldnt help much =(don't be, if we had more ppl, it would have been chaotic, so you kinda helped by not showing up
Post by: Captain Scibra on April 06, 2011, 12:33:12 am
tinychat sucks...Not bad attempt at a what I call a 'Core' Trio, but with the immos, crap draws aplenty. I personally like mine, named Gravigolems under Fire, more consistant and decent speed (around 9 or 10 ttw against AI3)Code: [Select]55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55k 55p 55p 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 55u 595 595 595 595 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5f9 5fa 5fa 5fa
I didn't have much time, so the pillar/BB and immo ratio might need tweaking, but it was pretty nice in my testing
Post by: thatnewguy on April 06, 2011, 12:35:56 am
Vault Organizer says who touches vault, after last night, I say I touch it alone. Just don't touch it and we'll get along fine.Vault is perfect, nobody touch it.With all due respect, I have every right to. ;D
Post by: Captain Scibra on April 06, 2011, 12:52:57 am
Sorry, thought I was still the VO. Back to being the Pet then :(Vault Organizer says who touches vault, after last night, I say I touch it alone. Just don't touch it and we'll get along fine.Vault is perfect, nobody touch it.With all due respect, I have every right to. ;D
Post by: jmdt on April 06, 2011, 12:55:03 am
Other than the fact that only tng touches the vault. We can discuss all changes in the salvaging thread though.