Shard of Focus | Shard of Focus

[Avenger]

Looks way too OP. Only BB counters this. It cost 3 quanta and has (effectively) reusable PC? It needs to be reworked. Badly.

Only BB?
What about Lobo and Mutation? Besides hard cc.

[rowcla]

Looks way too OP. Only BB counters this. It cost 3 quanta and has (effectively) reusable PC? It needs to be reworked. Badly.

Only BB?
What about Lobo and Mutation? Besides hard cc.

And freeze, and permantless decks, and arctic squid, to be honest theres a fair few...

Though obviously this needs a massive nerf

[OldTrees]

My thoughts in short

• Everyone can see it requires a nerf. That is normal for In Development and holds especially true for Shards.
• However I hope everyone sees that despite the current OP state, it is countered by many forms of CC. However this is EtG therefore the card will be balanced further.
• Nerfs are not permitted to alter the core of the card. Doing so would destroy the card. What is permitted is altering the modifying details and mechanics.
• What is the core of the card? Only the Author can answer that, however I think it is evident that Creature, Shard and Devour Permanent are central to the card.
• Creature requires stats and balancing the creature generation of Fractal and Mitosis.
  (Mitosis receiving an exception clause is unnecessary because fractal would still require this task.)
• Shard requires it be usable by any element but give Gravity an advantage.
• Devour Permanent requires multiple uses of Hard PC (Destroy).
• So what is left to nerf? (These are not mutually exclusive and multiple will be used.)
• We can increase the casting cost and activation cost. This would pay for the advantage given and give higher scaling costs to fractal and mitosis.
• We can adjust the number of uses of PC by adjusting the initial hp, hp increase and hp limit.
• We can modify the limitation on uses of PC to balance the various attempts to bypass the limitation (Reverse Time, Rage Potion and Gravity Pull).
  (Higher Casting Cost and Activation Cost. If that is not sufficient the limitation could be converted to max hp at the cost of eliminating the RP and GP synergies.)

As a ballpark (within +/-4.5 )
This is not a real card. This is only my initial nerf suggestion.

Result:
2 PC for 11 + 1 card + 2 turns which is theoretically (1.67 ) more than 6 + 2 cards (aka 2 Deflagrations)
The delay and uncertainty balances the card advantage Gravity users gain.
Fractal and Mitosis have a higher yet reasonable cost
Attempts to avoid the hp limitation have reduced effect.
Rage Potion will give +1 use of PC.
Gravity Pull requires lots of CC to reduce damage per turn.
Reverse Time is balanced by the higher cost of the PC but remains reasonable for Eternity.
Downside: Acceleration and Catapult would have low synergy with this variation of SoF.
A better solution would retain synergy with Gravity Pull, Acceleration and Catapult.

[Orichalcum]

2 PC for 11 + 1 card + 2 turns which is theoretically slightly (-0.33 ) less than 8 + 2 cards (aka 2 Deflagrations)

Good overall break down on what can be done in the list section. But I'm not quite sure how the math for works.
I assumed you were comparing both unupped due to the 11  : 5(card cost) + 3(skill cost)*2 turns = 11
But for the two deflags: 3(card cost)*2 = 6 . where do the other 2 come from to get 8?

[OldTrees]

2 PC for 11 + 1 card + 2 turns which is theoretically slightly (-0.33 ) less than 8 + 2 cards (aka 2 Deflagrations)

Good overall break down on what can be done in the list section. But I'm not quite sure how the math for works.
I assumed you were comparing both unupped due to the 11  : 5(card cost) + 3(skill cost)*2 turns = 11
But for the two deflags: 3(card cost)*2 = 6 . where do the other 2 come from to get 8?

I made a typo. It is corrected in my post above.
Thanks for the catch.

[Atico]

@OldTrees - I don't think that the biggest problem with this card is in cost. Of course in original version it is too cheap and all we know, but some type of PC for everyone didn't look so good. I am afraid also of BlackHole. 6BH + 6SoF = 12 BH in deck. Isn't it too much? BH is very powerful, as we can see in other poll it is in top5 the most OP cards in game in Players opinion. I prefer other type of Gravity advantage here. Maybe it will be better to make this card 0/1 and raise HP to 30 when mark is Gravity? Or raise 5HP for every GravityTower/Pendelum. Then it will be good buff for Catapult, Overdrive etc. Or maybe destroy for destroy, so "destroy Your and opponent non-pillar permament. Destroy only opponent permament when You have Gravity Mark".
All nerfs like changing only cost still make this card OP.

[OldTrees]

@OldTrees - I don't think that the biggest problem with this card is in cost. Of course in original version it is too cheap and all we know, but some type of PC for everyone didn't look so good. I am afraid also of BlackHole. 6BH + 6SoF = 12 BH in deck. Isn't it too much? BH is very powerful, as we can see in other poll it is in top5 the most OP cards in game in Players opinion. I prefer other type of Gravity advantage here. Maybe it will be better to make this card 0/1 and raise HP to 30 when mark is Gravity? Or raise 5HP for every GravityTower/Pendelum. Then it will be good buff for Catapult, Overdrive etc. Or maybe destroy for destroy, so "destroy Your and opponent non-pillar permament. Destroy only opponent permament when You have Gravity Mark".
All nerfs like changing only cost still make this card OP.

PC for everyone might (highly likely) be a core part of the card. If it is then changing that would remove the card. Everyone having PC is not a problem just as everyone having healing is not a problem. The problem you are highlighting is everyone having access to Hard PC. I personally do not think all elements should have mono access to Hard PC. However I am not Zanz.

12x BH does not seem as big a problem especially since it takes 11 and 2 turns in my suggestion for the BH to be available to cast for the additional 4 . However BH could easily be substituted with another high mass Gravity card and not affect the balance or theme.

Finally your claim that "All nerfs like changing only cost still make this card OP." is clearly false. If it cost 100 to cast it would be broken and UP but not OP. Clearly changing the cost can balance at least the cheapest usage of the card. Whether it can balance all usages simultaneously remains to be seen. If you mean something other than Over Powered when you say OP please be more precise and use an accurate term.

[Atico]

@OldTrees - I don't think that the biggest problem with this card is in cost. Of course in original version it is too cheap and all we know, but some type of PC for everyone didn't look so good. I am afraid also of BlackHole. 6BH + 6SoF = 12 BH in deck. Isn't it too much? BH is very powerful, as we can see in other poll it is in top5 the most OP cards in game in Players opinion. I prefer other type of Gravity advantage here. Maybe it will be better to make this card 0/1 and raise HP to 30 when mark is Gravity? Or raise 5HP for every GravityTower/Pendelum. Then it will be good buff for Catapult, Overdrive etc. Or maybe destroy for destroy, so "destroy Your and opponent non-pillar permament. Destroy only opponent permament when You have Gravity Mark".
All nerfs like changing only cost still make this card OP.

PC for everyone might (highly likely) be a core part of the card. If it is then changing that would remove the card. Everyone having PC is not a problem just as everyone having healing is not a problem. The problem you are highlighting is everyone having access to Hard PC. I personally do not think all elements should have mono access to Hard PC. However I am not Zanz.

12x BH does not seem as big a problem especially since it takes 11 and 2 turns in my suggestion for the BH to be available to cast for the additional 4 . However BH could easily be substituted with another high mass Gravity card and not affect the balance or theme.

Finally your claim that "All nerfs like changing only cost still make this card OP." is clearly false. If it cost 100 to cast it would be broken and UP but not OP. Clearly changing the cost can balance at least the cheapest usage of the card. Whether it can balance all usages simultaneously remains to be seen. If you mean something other than Over Powered when you say OP please be more precise and use an accurate term.

You are right with this cost My language is not so good, so I didn't know how to tell this. By this claim I would like to say that there isn't huge difference between cost 3 or 5 here (as You propose), so this claim was for Your offer not overall Your offer for SoF is still much better than simple Butterfly Effect. If we want to make this card balanced with BE then skill cost should be much higher than 3, and card should cost around 7-8 for upped (BE cost 4, creature 1, co it is 5 , here we talk about random quantum and SoF is 2in1).

BH is problem, not only against rainbows. For me it isn't fair, that counter card like Sanctuary get now next "counter against counter". It is huge OP especially with Discord. You destroy Sanctuary, You have discord in play and You get BH to hand. In other games it looks easier - put Discord, destroy pillars, gain BH and opponent hasn't got Pillars, You have full HP and easy way to win. Today Discord+BH (or Quicksand+BH) is considered as OP duo. Now it will be stronger Maybe it is good time to nerf Nova and BH in one patch?

[OldTrees]

@OldTrees - I don't think that the biggest problem with this card is in cost. Of course in original version it is too cheap and all we know, but some type of PC for everyone didn't look so good. I am afraid also of BlackHole. 6BH + 6SoF = 12 BH in deck. Isn't it too much? BH is very powerful, as we can see in other poll it is in top5 the most OP cards in game in Players opinion. I prefer other type of Gravity advantage here. Maybe it will be better to make this card 0/1 and raise HP to 30 when mark is Gravity? Or raise 5HP for every GravityTower/Pendelum. Then it will be good buff for Catapult, Overdrive etc. Or maybe destroy for destroy, so "destroy Your and opponent non-pillar permament. Destroy only opponent permament when You have Gravity Mark".
All nerfs like changing only cost still make this card OP.

PC for everyone might (highly likely) be a core part of the card. If it is then changing that would remove the card. Everyone having PC is not a problem just as everyone having healing is not a problem. The problem you are highlighting is everyone having access to Hard PC. I personally do not think all elements should have mono access to Hard PC. However I am not Zanz.

12x BH does not seem as big a problem especially since it takes 11 and 2 turns in my suggestion for the BH to be available to cast for the additional 4 . However BH could easily be substituted with another high mass Gravity card and not affect the balance or theme.

Finally your claim that "All nerfs like changing only cost still make this card OP." is clearly false. If it cost 100 to cast it would be broken and UP but not OP. Clearly changing the cost can balance at least the cheapest usage of the card. Whether it can balance all usages simultaneously remains to be seen. If you mean something other than Over Powered when you say OP please be more precise and use an accurate term.

You are right with this cost My language is not so good, so I didn't know how to tell this. By this claim I would like to say that there isn't huge difference between cost 3 or 5 here (as You propose), so this claim was for Your offer not overall Your offer for SoF is still much better than simple Butterfly Effect. If we want to make this card balanced with BE then skill cost should be much higher than 3, and card should cost around 7-8 for upped (BE cost 4, creature 1, co it is 5 , here we talk about random quantum and SoF is 2in1).

BH is problem, not only against rainbows. For me it isn't fair, that counter card like Sanctuary get now next "counter against counter". It is huge OP especially with Discord. You destroy Sanctuary, You have discord in play and You get BH to hand. In other games it looks easier - put Discord, destroy pillars, gain BH and opponent hasn't got Pillars, You have full HP and easy way to win. Today Discord+BH (or Quicksand+BH) is considered as OP duo. Now it will be stronger Maybe it is good time to nerf Nova and BH in one patch?

My suggestion was much more detailed than just an increase in the casting cost by 2 .
I suggested:
Increase casting cost by 2 ,
Increase activation cost by 3 ,
Decrease uses of PC from 4 to 2, and
Decrease hp from 15 to 5

BE gets more than 2 uses and is more secure in getting at least 1 use. Also BE is considered as possible UP unlike Pulvy or 2 Deflagrations. Since my modification was more akin to 2 Deflags than to BE I expect 2 Deflagrations to be a better comparison.

If the Black Hole part of Shard of Focus in unbalanced it is the fault of Black Hole and not of Shard of Focus. If Black Hole (is/were to be) balanced then so would the Black Hole clause of Shard of Focus. Again another card could be substituted without affecting the balance.

Sidenote: Theoretically 5 is to 3 as 2 is to 1 . It is not much but it can add up with other simultaneous nerfs.

[Atico]

My suggestion was much more detailed than just an increase in the casting cost by 2 .
I suggested:
Increase casting cost by 2 ,
Increase activation cost by 3 ,
Decrease uses of PC from 4 to 2, and
Decrease hp from 15 to 5

BE gets more than 2 uses and is more secure in getting at least 1 use. Also BE is considered as possible UP unlike Pulvy or 2 Deflagrations. Since my modification was more akin to 2 Deflags than to BE I expect 2 Deflagrations to be a better comparison.

If the Black Hole part of Shard of Focus in unbalanced it is the fault of Black Hole and not of Shard of Focus. If Black Hole (is/were to be) balanced then so would the Black Hole clause of Shard of Focus. Again another card could be substituted without affecting the balance.

Sidenote: Theoretically 5 is to 3 as 2 is to 1 . It is not much but it can add up with other simultaneous nerfs.

Increase casting cost by 2 , - Still cost less than BE (3 vs 3 )
Increase activation cost by 3 , - Still cost less than BE (4 vs 3 )
Decrease uses of PC from 4 to 2, and - here is little advantage of BE
Decrease hp from 15 to 5 - still is better than BE (SoF didn't need second card to use like BE+creature and most of <3 attack creatures has got <5HP).

If You compare it with Explosion it looks sometimes better, but personally I think that better card to compare is BE, because it need creature and 1 turn to activate.

I can agree with BlackHole This shard is the best moment to talk about balance some cards like BH or Discord. 12 BlackHoles (as they are now) in hand looks very powerful for me. Most of games are <12 turns, so Black Hole every 1-2 turns isn't good news.

As we can see there are a lot of possibilities to nerf this card and we are waiting for Zanz decision. I belive that he knows and see much more than we and maybe our fear of PC is unnecessary. Today I think that this card shouldn't destroy more than Shields and Weapons, but I am waiting for tests in trainer

[OldTrees]

My suggestion was much more detailed than just an increase in the casting cost by 2 .
I suggested:
Increase casting cost by 2 ,
Increase activation cost by 3 ,
Decrease uses of PC from 4 to 2, and
Decrease hp from 15 to 5

BE gets more than 2 uses and is more secure in getting at least 1 use. Also BE is considered as possible UP unlike Pulvy or 2 Deflagrations. Since my modification was more akin to 2 Deflags than to BE I expect 2 Deflagrations to be a better comparison.

Increase casting cost by 2 , - Still cost less than BE (3 vs 5 )
Increase activation cost by 3 , - Still cost less than BE (3 vs 3 )
Decrease uses of PC from 4 to 2, and - here is a great advantage of BE
Decrease hp from 15 to 5 - still is better than BE (SoF didn't need second card to use like BE+creature and most of <3 attack creatures has got <5HP).

If You compare it with Explosion it looks sometimes better, but personally I think that better card to compare is BE, because it need creature and 1 turn to activate.

Balanced cards should be used in comparisons. BE is not a great example of balance unlike Pulvy or the recently nerfed Deflagration.
1) BE is considered by some to be UP compared to other forms of PC including reusable summoning sickness affected skill based PC like Pulvy.
2) Deflagration has recently been nerfed to what I consider balanced.

The number of usages and the existence of limits on usage is a vital variable to equate in comparisons.
1) Butterfly Effect gets 1 use per turn with no maximum.
2) Deflagration is limited to 1 usage.
3) My suggested nerf restrict normal usage of Shard of Focus to 2 usages.
4) Therefore on this topic Shard of Focus is more similar to 2 Deflagrations than it is to Butterfly Effect + 1 creature.

Butterfly effect can be played on the turn the Destroy ability is used. In this manner Pulvy is a better match for the 1 turn delay.

I concede that Butterfly effect does require a creature and is similarly vulnerable to CC. However the number of uses is a much more important variable to equate in this comparison and I believe you underestimated the difference between limited (Spark) and reusable (Horned Frog). Note that the difference in cost between 1 use and reusable for such small effects like 3 damage results in a change of +2 cost. I believe you will find that with larger effects like PC, the cost change between limited and reusable is drastic.

[Bhlewos]

Just a thought I had while playing Instosis a few minutes ago (I've been tracking this topic and just skimmed through it again, but if someone else has posted this already, feel free to speak up).

How about we make it so Shard of Focus does not itself have the ability to destroy permanents? But rather, upon the destruction of any permanent, it gains HP? That way you would need to combo it with PC cards like Steal, Destroy, BE, or Pulverizer (more on that later).

And permanent destruction in this case would also include such things as Sundial, Cloak, or Dimensional Shield expiring, or Bone Shield and Diss Shield being "broken" by creature attacks. Even something like Flooding expiring due to not enough upkeep could trigger SoF's ability.

This solves two things I've been worried about the current SoF:
1) No PC for all elements. I know some people have been calling for more PC besides just , , and /:gravity, but I've seen a lot of complaints (which I agree with) that rainbows would benefit more than mono elements would.
2) This gives Gravity an additional benefit besides the extra Black Hole, namely that Pulverizer, being one of two reusable PC cards in the game, is powered by . Rainbows would still be able to use it, but Gravity would be better off than Rainbows, unlike the current situation (which I believe SoF would find more uses in rainbows than mono- or duo-Gravity decks).
EDIT: Adding a third thing:
3) SoF would no longer overshadow BE, IMO.

Thanks to Kuro, Oni, and Cheesy for help with the initial brainstorming in chat.