Post by: Scaredgirl on December 15, 2010, 04:54:53 am
(http://elementscommunity.org/images/Cards/Upgrade.png)
Oracle prediction: You will be called on to make great sacrifice today...so choose who to sacrifice carefully.
Table of Damage
by Bhlewos
Damage Formula: dmg=100*HP/(100+HP)
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I rounded up since that was how the damage was calculated the old way, so 13.04 became 14, and 27.007 became 28. I'm not sure if this is how it's supposed to be done so correct me if it isn't.(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/catapultChart.png)
And here's a graph comparing the old values to the new. Apologies for the step-like-ness of the graphs, I used the integer values.
New Change: The Catapult | Trebuchet now deals 20% additional damage if you fling a frozen creature, and if you fling an Infected creature, it adds Poison counters to the opponent equal to the number of Infection counters on the creature.
Even newer change: Catapult | Trebuchet now deals 30% (not 20%) additional damage if you fling a frozen creature.
Newest change: Catapult | Trebuchet now deals 50% (not 30%) additional damage if you fling a frozen creature.
Trivia: At 27 HP, Freeze starts doing more damage than Basilisk Blood via Catapult. A Frozen, Catapulted Titan does 50 damage instead of 51 because of how the game rounds down.
Post by: Dragoon1140 on December 15, 2010, 04:55:57 am
Zanz said the maximum damage is ~25, for those who are willing to experiment with otk's.
Post by: Kamietsu on December 15, 2010, 04:56:11 am
Ninja'd!!!
Anyway. This looks like a really awesome card :D Definitely gonna be fun to test.
Post by: Kuroaitou on December 15, 2010, 04:57:39 am
Also - I was in before girlsgeneration goes crazy. :P
Post by: pikachufan2164 on December 15, 2010, 04:58:01 am
Quote
[11:52:44 PM] zanzarino: i was also trying to stick to the concept there... if I stab you with a poisonous weapon i do not care if you are carrying around a mirror
[11:53:17 PM] zanzarino: For the same reason mirror should not reflect the catapult damage either
Post by: Appawesome on December 15, 2010, 04:58:13 am
| Health | Damage | Health | Damage | Health | Damage | ||
| 1 | 1 | 14&15 | 11 | 41-44 | 21 | ||
| 2 | 2 | 16&17 | 12 | 45-48 | 22 | ||
| 3 | 3 | 18&19 | 13 | 49-54 | 23 | ||
| 4 | 4 | 20&21 | 14 | 55-60 | 24 | ||
| 5 | 5 | 22-24 | 15 | 61+ | 25 | ||
| 6&7 | 6 | 25&26 | 16 | ||||
| 8 | 7 | 27-29 | 17 | ||||
| 9&10 | 8 | 30-32 | 18 | ||||
| 11 | 9 | 33-36 | 19 | ||||
| 12&13 | 10 | 37-40 | 20 |
Post by: asymmetry on December 15, 2010, 05:04:02 am
Post by: Dragoon1140 on December 15, 2010, 05:07:54 am
Someone should reserve a post on front page, then tell use the damage/size ratio, so we don't have to look on page 4.Smaller (Less damage)
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Bigger (More damage)
Post by: suxerz on December 15, 2010, 05:08:06 am
Fractal armagios will be fun!
Post by: BluePriest on December 15, 2010, 05:08:43 am
Post by: Appawesome on December 15, 2010, 05:11:36 am
Bigger how? Attack wise (like adrenaline)? Or HP wise (would be OP with armagio, IMO)?Someone should reserve a post on front page, then tell use the damage/size ratio, so we don't have to look on page 4.Smaller (Less damage)
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Bigger (More damage)
What is the ratio of size/damage?
Post by: Krahhl on December 15, 2010, 05:14:52 am
How would shields affect this? It would seem like physical damage, but damage that only hits once is usually spell. It would make sense to have momentum too, so it'd probably ignore shields anyway.
So.. a damage source that isn't reflected by mirror shield and isn't stopped by sundial?
Post by: jmdt on December 15, 2010, 05:17:02 am
Post by: willng3 on December 15, 2010, 05:19:47 am
Smaller creatures gain more extra attacks
Seeing as how smaller is /usually/ the opposite of larger, this could cause a lot of issues with the wording of the cards, leading more people to believe that larger creatures = more attack creatures.
Post by: Krahhl on December 15, 2010, 05:27:10 am
Post by: BluePriest on December 15, 2010, 05:30:29 am
I assume larger means more hp.Think of it as a permanent with momentum. Thats the beast analogy I have until its in the trainer. Sundial wont stop it due to it being an activated ability.
How would shields affect this? It would seem like physical damage, but damage that only hits once is usually spell. It would make sense to have momentum too, so it'd probably ignore shields anyway.
So.. a damage source that isn't reflected by mirror shield and isn't stopped by sundial?
Zanz is adding a lot of ways to kill/benifits for killing your own creatures in this update...
Post by: asymmetry on December 15, 2010, 05:40:27 am
Post by: Marvaddin on December 15, 2010, 05:41:11 am
If it larger really means big HP, this is a very powerfull card to gravity. And please dont give it to Gemini :P
Post by: willng3 on December 15, 2010, 05:50:14 am
[00:49:37] zanzarino: dmg=40*HP/(40+HP)
[00:50:13] zanzarino: It means that for creatures up to 6hp
[00:50:16] zanzarino: dmg=hp
[00:51:14] zanzarino: A creature with 50 hp does 23 damage
[00:51:29] zanzarino: 75hp=27damage
And so on...
Post by: jumpoffduck on December 15, 2010, 06:03:28 am
| Health | Damage |
| 1 | 1 |
| 2 | 2 |
| 3 | 3 |
| 4 | 4 |
| 5 | 5 |
| 6 | 6 |
| 7 | 6 |
| 8 | 7 |
| 9 | 8 |
| 10 | 8 |
| 11 | 9 |
| 12 | 10 |
| 13 | 10 |
| 14 | 11 |
| 15 | 11 |
| 16 | 12 |
| 17 | 12 |
| 18 | 13 |
| 19 | 13 |
| 20 | 14 |
| 21 | 14 |
| 22 | 15 |
| 23 | 15 |
| 24 | 15 |
| 25 | 16 |
| 26 | 16 |
| 27 | 17 |
| 28 | 17 |
| 29 | 17 |
| 30 | 18 |
| 31 | 18 |
| 32 | 18 |
| 33 | 19 |
| 34 | 19 |
| 35 | 19 |
| 36 | 19 |
| 37 | 20 |
| 38 | 20 |
| 39 | 20 |
| 40 | 20 |
| 41 | 21 |
| 42 | 21 |
| 43 | 21 |
| 44 | 21 |
| 45 | 22 |
| 46 | 22 |
| 47 | 22 |
| 48 | 22 |
| 49 | 23 |
| 50 | 23 |
| 51 | 23 |
| 52 | 23 |
| 53 | 23 |
| 54 | 23 |
| 55 | 24 |
| 56 | 24 |
| 57 | 24 |
| 58 | 24 |
| 59 | 24 |
| 60 | 24 |
| 61 | 25 |
| 62 | 25 |
| 63 | 25 |
| 64 | 25 |
| 65 | 25 |
| 66 | 25 |
| 67 | 26 |
| 68 | 26 |
| 69 | 26 |
| 70 | 26 |
| 71 | 26 |
| 72 | 26 |
| 73 | 26 |
| 74 | 26 |
| 75 | 27 |
(http://i.imgur.com/2ntFF.png)
Post by: Essence on December 15, 2010, 06:15:26 am
Post by: twinsbuster on December 15, 2010, 06:28:37 am
you have to play a Catapult, then play a Massive Dragon which does 8 damage every turn and activate the skill for only 18 damage
you lose much more for throwing a Titan, that wasted 3 cards in total, for only 23 damage
while unstable gas can deal 20 damage by itself
Post by: nilsieboy on December 15, 2010, 06:33:28 am
Post by: Essence on December 15, 2010, 06:49:04 am
"You will be called on to make great sacrifice today...so choose who to sacrifice carefully."
Post by: Krahhl on December 15, 2010, 07:00:26 am
Post by: kintar on December 15, 2010, 07:17:15 am
I think the damage ratio is too low and this card is too weakI agree. The only cost-effective way of using this card that I can think of is Voodoo Dolls, which does 14 damage, which is not impressive at all. And due to the way the formula works, stacking Basilisk Blood increases the damage by very little once the creature has more than 30 HP or so. Unstable Gas is much better for direct damage.
you have to play a Catapult, then play a Massive Dragon which does 8 damage every turn and activate the skill for only 18 damage
you lose much more for throwing a Titan, that wasted 3 cards in total, for only 23 damage
while unstable gas can deal 20 damage by itself
Post by: SnoWeb on December 15, 2010, 08:06:03 am
Unstable Gas is much better for direct damage.But it's stopped by 2 shields and you can't use it in mono decks.
In mono gravity the catapult with unupped armagio does 16 damages.
And I'm pretty sure our crazy deck builders here will come up with amazing build using it.
Good work Zanz.
Post by: twinsbuster on December 15, 2010, 08:25:45 am
But it's stopped by 2 shields and you can't use it in mono decks.Mono air with elite firefly.
Anyway Catapult is not effective at all. Let's see sacrificing a 499 HP creature only deal 37 damage. Do you know how much effort paid to make such creature?
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 15, 2010, 08:32:10 am
Post by: Kael Hate on December 15, 2010, 08:57:59 am
Anyway Catapult is not effective at all. Let's see sacrificing a 499 HP creature only deal 37 damage. Do you know how much effort paid to make such creature?There is a Reason why trebuchet in real life never threw 50 ton projectiles.
The card is ok as is, but might be nice to get more out of a Chimera or larger creature.
Suggestions and/or
- Make it able to hit random opponents creature or the player with a 1 in all chance to miss.
- Make it do a random value between 0 and the sacrificed creatures HP.
Post by: burne on December 15, 2010, 09:12:13 am
Basilik blooded gem finder seems a nice target too in terms of cost effectivness.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 15, 2010, 09:25:50 am
It may also be usefull in a scarab swarm to bypass shield.Scarabs! Never thought of that, brilliant, just imagine Osiris with this ;)
Basilik blooded gem finder seems a nice target too in terms of cost effectivness.
Post by: pikachufan2164 on December 15, 2010, 09:32:03 am
Ancient Egyptian Pharaoh launching things on a Catapult? Sounds like a certain children's card game to me XDIt may also be usefull in a scarab swarm to bypass shield.Scarabs! Never thought of that, brilliant, just imagine Osiris with this ;)
Basilik blooded gem finder seems a nice target too in terms of cost effectivness.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/a2eu4.png)
Post by: Acsabi44 on December 15, 2010, 11:12:30 am
1, Stall with DimShield.
2, PU a couple Armagios.
3, Play this.
4, ? ? ? ? ?
5, PROFIT
throw in a a few massive dragons and/ or flying titans for fun.
Post by: Avenger on December 15, 2010, 11:13:36 am
Futile effort is futile. I see no problem in that, if you know there is no use.But it's stopped by 2 shields and you can't use it in mono decks.Anyway Catapult is not effective at all. Let's see sacrificing a 499 HP creature only deal 37 damage. Do you know how much effort paid to make such creature?
Post by: lava golem on December 15, 2010, 11:30:05 am
Post by: Drobbit on December 15, 2010, 11:34:13 am
Cool! My auburn nymph finally has job to do :DTrue. That improves auburn nymph.
Graveyard + fractal sparks + auburn nymp + catapult = funny game
Post by: Malduk on December 15, 2010, 11:47:39 am
Now Gravity benefits from sacrificing own creatures... khm... I think we need a :death version of Trebuchet that deals poison counter by sacrificing creatures, as you know, those things were often used to fling disease infected corpses of humans and animals to spread disease in sieged town. :-*
Also, I know this was a long awaited :gravity card, but its a bit ironic. Its a weapon built practically to counter the effects of gravity, and most catapults actually used rope torsion to get energy for hurling the object. Practically the only catapult that actually used gravity force to some extent was counter weight trebuchet. :)
Post by: Zeru on December 15, 2010, 12:30:24 pm
Post by: suxerz on December 15, 2010, 12:44:33 pm
I'd love some some formula for easier dmg counting. If nobody makes it, I'll go for it.I think zanz already mentioned the formula. Willing post it here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17670.msg240320#msg240320).
Post by: GG on December 15, 2010, 12:46:25 pm
that still doesn't help with my profile pic... I'd rather use something like fractal armagio than massive dragon =_=
Post by: Zeru on December 15, 2010, 12:52:06 pm
I think zanz already mentioned the formula. Willing post it here (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17670.msg240320#msg240320).Thank you. I modified the opening post so that everyone can find this easily.
Post by: Malduk on December 15, 2010, 12:56:14 pm
I'd rather use something like fractal armagio than massive dragon =_=BB'd Antilions, or Dolls, works. Best usage of it seems to be to counter BB when used as CC on your creatures.
I wouldnt rush to fling expensive stuff...
Btw, this could use some "easier" calculation. Even when you know the formula, it sucks to keep calculating your creatures to see which one to fling over. I'd rather have simple table, say in divisions of 5 HP, dealing 3-4 damage per.
Post by: Marvaddin on December 15, 2010, 01:12:36 pm
Post by: wizelsnarf on December 15, 2010, 01:21:51 pm
This card is going to benefit a few cards, none of them being massive dragon.
Armagio is the ideal target as it is relatively cheap (5 :gravity) but has low attack so it is just sitting there kind of useless.
This card is more of a "final blow" card just like Sky Blitz or fractal etc except it isn't as good because you have to set it up the turn before your final blow.
I will test it but it seems UP.
Post by: Malduk on December 15, 2010, 01:27:06 pm
I will test it but it seems UP.Nah, the card is pretty useful. You may not want to build a whole deck around it, but it works as an addition. Something like Lobo+Hope wont stop you from killing the opponent anymore, as you can fling creatures that dont bypass shields anymore.
Post by: Acsabi44 on December 15, 2010, 02:01:36 pm
MtG players compare it to Bloodshot Cyclops (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Bloodshot+Cyclops) and the 20 starting HP (plus, the cyclops can fling itself).
Post by: twinsbuster on December 15, 2010, 02:08:09 pm
which mean what HP is the most efficient?
Post by: Hyroen on December 15, 2010, 02:15:37 pm
Thank you.
Post by: Falcon4415 on December 15, 2010, 02:21:39 pm
Post by: nilsieboy on December 15, 2010, 02:27:13 pm
make fractal armagio with it with dimensional shields or gravity shield+oty.
once you fractal armagios you spam your field with them while they save you, you play the trebuchets and kill opponent.
Post by: OldTrees on December 15, 2010, 02:29:58 pm
dmg/cost is a better ratio [Voodoo Doll and Armagio]
dmg/cost/atk is a more informative ratio [Voodoo Doll and Armagio again]
Post by: The_Mormegil on December 15, 2010, 02:40:05 pm
1) Healing stops you.
2) PC stops you
3) Quanta is a problem
4) You REALLY need Fractal for this to work
Although it may be used as a single-card addition to SOME decks (I dunno which ones... I suppose something that has low-attack creatures, but then again, momentum is just plain better...)
Post by: gavsword on December 15, 2010, 02:43:43 pm
Post by: willng3 on December 15, 2010, 03:20:45 pm
Now is this starting health or current health at the time of sac?Current health, i.e. don't Gravity Pull an Armagio and then use this card when it's down to 4HP :)
Post by: jmdt on December 15, 2010, 03:28:02 pm
I agree with Girls Generation.Yeah, massive dragon is still as bad as ever due to its cost and low attack. firemaster is actually better to chuck than merc due to the cost, but the measly 6 damage really isn't worth it.
This card is going to benefit a few cards, none of them being massive dragon.
Armagio is the ideal target as it is relatively cheap (5 :gravity) but has low attack so it is just sitting there kind of useless.
This card is more of a "final blow" card just like Sky Blitz or fractal etc except it isn't as good because you have to set it up the turn before your final blow.
I will test it but it seems UP.
Another thing that makes catapult weaker than say sky blitz is that you can only launch 1 critter per turn. In order for catapult to be useful, you have to chuck an armaggio or such every turn, negating any further damage they can do. This makes catapult quit weak versus decks with healing since you don't have the option of saving up for 1 salvo like you can do with unstable gas.
Post by: Xinef on December 15, 2010, 03:31:22 pm
Although it may be used as a single-card addition to SOME decks (I dunno which ones... I suppose something that has low-attack creatures, but then again, momentum is just plain better...)After seeing the card I instantaneously thought about Pharaohs+Scarabs (Fractal Scarabs also works). Of course, the combo only works if you already managed to set up a field full of scarabs, so in most cases you win simply through scarab's damage. Catapult can work as an emergency card for situations like phase shield stall, diamond shield, gravity shield, emerald shield, permafrost and the like. In this case, catapult is much better than momentum for 3 reasons:
- Lobo/Rewind etc. can't counter it. (PC can, but Pharaoh decks usually take Procrastinations, Eternities and SoGs, so it's no big deal)
- In unupped decks the combo works equally well (unupped scarabs are 2/N, upped 3/N)
- It generally results in higher damage gain/card.
Generally with a field half-full, it's ~9 damage per 2 :time
With a full field, it's ~15 damage per 2 :time
Not much, but as I said, enough to beat a stall deck, especially if you have SoGs to give you some Time.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 15, 2010, 03:38:18 pm
Post by: RavingRabbid on December 15, 2010, 04:13:00 pm
Post by: Korugar on December 15, 2010, 04:19:09 pm
Post by: Acsabi44 on December 15, 2010, 04:50:59 pm
- Sundial nerf
- Antimatter nerf
- gravitron merc buff
Post by: Malduk on December 15, 2010, 05:13:43 pm
this card is also a- makes Death nymph and Afla useless too. Flinging first cell is hilarious. "Oh no you wont, go away!". Also makes "board lock" completely impossible.
- Sundial nerf
- Antimatter nerf
- gravitron merc buff
- depending oh who has it, it either lets you do something with your BBed creatures, or if you're the one using BBs, makes them more versatile
Post by: Avenger on December 15, 2010, 05:50:33 pm
I don't understand how would this cause any problem with malignant cells?this card is also a- makes Death nymph and Afla useless too. Flinging first cell is hilarious. "Oh no you wont, go away!". Also makes "board lock" completely impossible.
- Sundial nerf
- Antimatter nerf
- gravitron merc buff
- depending oh who has it, it either lets you do something with your BBed creatures, or if you're the one using BBs, makes them more versatile
"Board lock" was already impossible if you had eternity/druid. Or probably other means.
Post by: Malduk on December 15, 2010, 05:59:06 pm
Just saying its yet ANOTHER way to counter Afla/Death nymph. Just like its yet another way to counter Antimatter for example.
Post by: Korugar on December 15, 2010, 06:04:37 pm
Post by: Avenger on December 15, 2010, 06:25:02 pm
I think more ways to counter Antimatter are warranted. It's an amazingly hard card to counter, and while it's not totally OP, cards like this that make it slightly less useful are ok. Afla, on the other hand has issues, and could use a little help...The nastiest counter i received for antimatter: use butterfly effect on it. I recently lost a match against the AI that way :)
If you have growth creatures, grow them evenly. You can burn them as well for a big heap of quanta. Rewind is the best though.
Post by: Avenger on December 15, 2010, 06:28:23 pm
Problem? Yes, board lock is already stupidly hard to achieve, and easily countered. Afla sucks.Against the AI it is stupidly easy ;)
Just saying its yet ANOTHER way to counter Afla/Death nymph. Just like its yet another way to counter Antimatter for example.
Drop some graveyards for stealing types, don't break their graveyard. Quint their cells or other critters best left untouched on the opponent side (I like quinting enemy dolls). They get cluttered pretty fast with useless creatures.
Drop a jade shield, and the lock is down.
I agree board lock is not too useful in PvP. PvP is dominated by rush decks. But that isn't Afla's problem.
Post by: Malduk on December 15, 2010, 06:33:34 pm
I'm not looking for advices on how to use a card against AI. AI is for grinding anyway, end-game is PvP, around which the game should be balanced or the game will lose its multiplayer appeal.Problem? Yes, board lock is already stupidly hard to achieve, and easily countered. Afla sucks.Against the AI it is stupidly easy ;)
Just saying its yet ANOTHER way to counter Afla/Death nymph. Just like its yet another way to counter Antimatter for example.
Drop some graveyards for stealing types, don't break their graveyard. Quint their cells or other critters best left untouched on the opponent side (I like quinting enemy dolls). They get cluttered pretty fast with useless creatures.
Drop a jade shield, and the lock is down.
I agree board lock is not too useful in PvP. PvP is dominated by rush decks. But that isn't Afla's problem.
Hell, even against AI, its easier to NOT use Afla, then to use it.
Back ON TOPIC: As mentioned on chat, Catapult would be much more viable card if it allowed for multiple uses per turn (like Rustler). Then it would be a decent finishing move card.
Post by: Glitch on December 15, 2010, 06:54:54 pm
I'm not looking for advices on how to use a card against AI. AI is for grinding anyway, end-game is PvP, around which the game should be balanced or the game will lose its multiplayer appeal.Problem? Yes, board lock is already stupidly hard to achieve, and easily countered. Afla sucks.Against the AI it is stupidly easy ;)
Just saying its yet ANOTHER way to counter Afla/Death nymph. Just like its yet another way to counter Antimatter for example.
Drop some graveyards for stealing types, don't break their graveyard. Quint their cells or other critters best left untouched on the opponent side (I like quinting enemy dolls). They get cluttered pretty fast with useless creatures.
Drop a jade shield, and the lock is down.
I agree board lock is not too useful in PvP. PvP is dominated by rush decks. But that isn't Afla's problem.
Hell, even against AI, its easier to NOT use Afla, then to use it.
Back ON TOPIC: As mentioned on chat, Catapult would be much more viable card if it allowed for multiple uses per turn (like Rustler). Then it would be a decent finishing move card.
Or you could just chimera really quickly, then catapult for the win.
Post by: The_Mormegil on December 15, 2010, 06:59:14 pm
Not half as useful, due to the formula.I'm not looking for advices on how to use a card against AI. AI is for grinding anyway, end-game is PvP, around which the game should be balanced or the game will lose its multiplayer appeal.Problem? Yes, board lock is already stupidly hard to achieve, and easily countered. Afla sucks.Against the AI it is stupidly easy ;)
Just saying its yet ANOTHER way to counter Afla/Death nymph. Just like its yet another way to counter Antimatter for example.
Drop some graveyards for stealing types, don't break their graveyard. Quint their cells or other critters best left untouched on the opponent side (I like quinting enemy dolls). They get cluttered pretty fast with useless creatures.
Drop a jade shield, and the lock is down.
I agree board lock is not too useful in PvP. PvP is dominated by rush decks. But that isn't Afla's problem.
Hell, even against AI, its easier to NOT use Afla, then to use it.
Back ON TOPIC: As mentioned on chat, Catapult would be much more viable card if it allowed for multiple uses per turn (like Rustler). Then it would be a decent finishing move card.
Or you could just chimera really quickly, then catapult for the win.
Post by: Essence on December 15, 2010, 07:51:19 pm
Post by: jmizzle7 on December 15, 2010, 07:58:09 pm
Suggested formula of damage: dmg=50*HP/(40+HP)
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Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 15, 2010, 08:00:32 pm
I tested Catapult last night. It could definitely use a buff. The cost is fine, but the damage output isn't nearly enough. I edited the formula slightly and found a possible scenario that would buff the damage output quite reasonably:Isn't the damage rounded down? Meaning 1 damage rather than 2 from a creature of 1 hp.
Suggested formula of damage: dmg=50*HP/(40+HP)
Health Damage 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 10 10 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 13 15 14 16 15 17 15 18 16 19 17 20 17 21 18 22 18 23 19 24 19 25 20
Health Damage 26 20 27 21 28 21 29 22 30 22 31 22 32 23 33 23 34 23 35 24 36 24 37 25 38 25 39 25 40 25 41 26 42 26 43 26 44 27 45 27 46 27 47 28 48 28 49 28 50 28
Health Damage 51 29 52 29 53 29 54 29 55 29 56 30 57 30 58 30 59 30 60 30 61 31 62 31 63 31 64 31 65 31 66 32 67 32 68 32 69 32 70 32 71 32 72 33 73 33 74 33 75 33
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 15, 2010, 08:03:03 pm
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 15, 2010, 08:07:00 pm
@theonlyrealbeef, the dmg is formula is there, it's not necessarily rounded downWell it is rounded down in most programming languages when dividing integers, and would require a workaround to act differently. IRC it was also rounded down with the original formula.
Post by: Kamietsu on December 15, 2010, 08:09:34 pm
I tested Catapult last night. It could definitely use a buff. The cost is fine, but the damage output isn't nearly enough. I edited the formula slightly and found a possible scenario that would buff the damage output quite reasonably:Isn't the damage rounded down? Meaning 1 damage rather than 2 from a creature of 1 hp.
Suggested formula of damage: dmg=50*HP/(40+HP)
Health Damage 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8 9 9 10 10 10 11 11 12 12 13 13 14 13 15 14 16 15 17 15 18 16 19 17 20 17 21 18 22 18 23 19 24 19 25 20
Health Damage 26 20 27 21 28 21 29 22 30 22 31 22 32 23 33 23 34 23 35 24 36 24 37 25 38 25 39 25 40 25 41 26 42 26 43 26 44 27 45 27 46 27 47 28 48 28 49 28 50 28
Health Damage 51 29 52 29 53 29 54 29 55 29 56 30 57 30 58 30 59 30 60 30 61 31 62 31 63 31 64 31 65 31 66 32 67 32 68 32 69 32 70 32 71 32 72 33 73 33 74 33 75 33
@theonlyrealbeef, the dmg is formula is there, it's not necessarily rounded downWell it is rounded down in most programming languages when dividing integers, and would require a workaround to act differently. IRC it was also rounded down with the original formula.
No, it is indeed rounded up. Zanz said so himself, and the math fits if you round up with the damage done when testing it.
Post by: Zeru on December 15, 2010, 08:10:54 pm
Post by: The_Mormegil on December 15, 2010, 09:01:54 pm
Post by: Zeru on December 15, 2010, 09:08:25 pm
It's not that simple... but the workaround could be implemented with, like, 5 lines of code at worse.Standard division rounds down. All you need to do is add 1. I don't know how difficult it is in the language Zanz is using, but in most I know, it's two symbols.
Post by: The_Mormegil on December 15, 2010, 09:17:13 pm
Yes, if you want to ALWAYS round up, that should be right... ^^ (I thought the point was rounding down for 0.0 - 0.5 and rounding up for 0.6 - 0.9 as is "usual")It's not that simple... but the workaround could be implemented with, like, 5 lines of code at worse.Standard division rounds down. All you need to do is add 1. I don't know how difficult it is in the language Zanz is using, but in most I know, it's two symbols.
Post by: jmizzle7 on December 15, 2010, 09:21:56 pm
Post by: Essence on December 15, 2010, 09:50:11 pm
Post by: Malduk on December 15, 2010, 10:15:27 pm
After testing a lot, I support jmizzle7. The damage output is just slightly low; I believe firmly that Catapaulting 4 uninjured Elite Armagio should kill an opponent, which james'll sven's formula does without changing the card dramatically.I dont.
Damage indeed is, but should be, low. Catapult is not just a damage dealer, and damage it does is unblockable.
Not to mention that instant damage is much more valuable than damage over time.
I do think Catapult could use a buff, but as I previously said, I think its enough of a buff to allow it to toss more often.
Post by: Raptor6789 on December 15, 2010, 10:18:16 pm
death affects as in those for condors, graveyards, etc.
Post by: Malduk on December 15, 2010, 10:19:19 pm
when sacrificing a creature, are the death affects triggered?Yes they are.
death affects as in those for condors, graveyards, etc.
Post by: Appawesome on December 15, 2010, 10:28:43 pm
Fractal armagio anyone?
Post by: OldTrees on December 15, 2010, 10:47:01 pm
Examples:
Damage(50HP)=2000/90~=23
Damage(100HP)=4000/140~=29
Post by: Tea is good on December 15, 2010, 11:42:18 pm
Post by: Xinef on December 16, 2010, 12:15:01 am
was hoping it would throw weapons from hand or permanents or something.Throwing pillars would be funny, elementals crushed by pillars falling from the sky.
Post by: twinsbuster on December 16, 2010, 03:01:21 am
support jmizzle7 +2After testing a lot, I support jmizzle7. The damage output is just slightly low; I believe firmly that Catapaulting 4 uninjured Elite Armagio should kill an opponent, which james'll sven's formula does without changing the card dramatically.I dont.
Damage indeed is, but should be, low. Catapult is not just a damage dealer, and damage it does is unblockable.
Not to mention that instant damage is much more valuable than damage over time.
I do think Catapult could use a buff, but as I previously said, I think its enough of a buff to allow it to toss more often.
again take unstable gas as example, Catapult 4 Elite Armagio to kill an opponent is still weaker because it has to do in several turns and less resistance to perm control
talking about direct damage, unstoppable Ruby Dragon can also deal that among, but in every turns...
Catapult need too many setups, costing much more quantum and card slots, but damage is lower
Post by: Pineapple on December 16, 2010, 03:36:00 am
If not, fractal scarab/voodoo + chimera + one of these = ^^
Post by: jmizzle7 on December 16, 2010, 03:47:56 am
Wait, is max really 25?No. There is no damage ceiling. However, the law of diminishing returns hits HARD. A creature with 1000 HP will only deal 39 damage with the current formula.
If not, fractal scarab/voodoo + chimera + one of these = ^^
Post by: Xinef on December 16, 2010, 03:55:06 am
No. There is no damage ceiling. However, the law of diminishing returns hits HARD. A creature with 1000 HP will only deal 39 damage with the current formula.The ceiling is mathematically 40, since
X / (X+N) for X -> :time equals 1
40 * 1 = 40
More precisely, it is 37, since HP is capped at 499 right now.
Practically though, the formula means that Catapult works best when you throw a large number of creatures with medium HP (between 10 and 30 I'd say). So, either you throw a number of creatures with a number of catapults at the same time, or a number of creatures with a single catapult over a period of several turns, or the card mechanic is changed.
Generally though, the card does not need to be buffed. Right now it's not powerful enough to build very effective decks around it, but the same is true for cards like momentum, deflag, purify and the like. You don't build decks around these cards. You add these cards to a deck built around some other key cards as a support for your other strategy. Or you use these as a part of a larger combo (eg. to trigger death effects). But, no one says that the card must be good enough to form your main source of damage. Neither momentum nor deflag are a main source of damage. They are simply ways to overcome shields and other stalling things. And standard creature rush should always be faster than catapulted armagios. Catapults are not meant for rush! They are siege weapons xD
Siege weapons are meant to destroy strong defensive setups, not to rush. If we continue with the medieval reference, if you want to rush, you take cavalry and infantry. Cavalry and infantry beats siege weapons (even the anti-infantry ones, due to higher mobility and larger numbers), siege weapons beat fortifications. Fortifications beat cavalry. Simple rock-paper-scissors scenario.
Saying that 18 damage for a thrown Armagio is too little and should be increased, is similar to saying that 'against a very heavily defended deck (PA'd Dissipation Shield or a huge Bone Wall, or something like that, with SoGs, CC, antimatter etc.) dealing 18 damage per turn is low. The truth is that it let's you win in 6 turns. Almost no other card would allow you to deal that much damage per turn against such a deck. Of course healing remains a problem. That's why you might need to shoot in salvos with a number of catapults, or pack PC (eg. pulvy nicely fits in :earth :gravity decks) to deal with SoGs, while BB and GP can be used to deal with creature based healing.
Post by: jmdt on December 16, 2010, 04:15:41 am
Generally though, the card does not need to be buffed. Right now it's not powerful enough to build very effective decks around it, but the same is true for cards like momentum, deflag, purify and the like. You don't build decks around these cards. You add these cards to a deck built around some other key cards as a support for your other strategy. Or you use these as a part of a larger combo (eg. to trigger death effects). But, no one says that the card must be good enough to form your main source of damage. Neither momentum nor deflag are a main source of damage. They are simply ways to overcome shields and other stalling things. And standard creature rush should always be faster than catapulted armagios. Catapults are not meant for rush! They are siege weapons xDThe problem is gravity can't rush either. Another slow card for an element sorely lacking speed.
Post by: jmizzle7 on December 16, 2010, 04:17:27 am
Post by: Xinef on December 16, 2010, 04:30:25 am
Catapult was designed to be a threatening card. It isn't at this time.Was it designed to be a threatening card? I thought it was designed to be threatening only to stall decks, while being at most average against other decks (when used offensively), while when it is used to trigger death effects can't be easily judged 'how threatening it is', but then changing the formula wouldn't change much. Making it's ability usable multiple times per turn might change that situation, but I'd say that catapults are quite slow weapons and don't seem like a card attacking more often than other cards.
Right now it is good for a number of purposes (as a support card). Not excellent, just good. Buffing the damage or allowing multiple use would increase the number of uses. The question is, is this card designed to be used more than other Gravity cards? Does every new card have to be used more often than the previous cards? It's a simple card that fills some niche. Unless Zanz intended otherwise.
As for the problem with Gravity lacking speed and damage... I'd say using catapult to fix this issue would be wrong. Catapults are not meant to be fast, and their damage is supposed to be high, but expensive, so creatures should definitely have better damage/cost ratio.
This problem should be fixed with other cards that are designed to be rush cards. Maybe acceleration will fill this purpose. Maybe not, and Gravity will have to wait for even more cards. IMHO we simply shouldn't try to bend the new cards to fix problems they are not meant to fix.
Of course, if Zanz's intention was different to my interpretation, than shall be it.
Not to mention that Time's rushing capabilities, even if I know a few tricks, are still worse than Gravity's in my opinion. At least if we compare unupped vs. unupped and Upped vs. Upped.
Post by: Mastermind79 on December 16, 2010, 04:59:51 am
Also, 1.26 has the most cards ever, it's awesome.
Post by: Acsabi44 on December 16, 2010, 10:12:10 am
You know nothing of the meatgame or the decks you'll face, you just wanna design a good all-around deck.
now.
Would you include Catapult into your deck over something else?
If your answer is yes, then this is a good card for you. If no, then this is UP.
I wouldn't. Maybe as an 1-of, if I ever face a heavy stall.
Another test: Build a deck with catapults, and test it against various decks. (AI3 will suffice). Every time you draw a catapult, ask yourself: "Would I be happier if this catapult I just drew were something else from my deck?" If the card is UP, then te answer will be 'YES' most of the time.
Post by: The_Mormegil on December 16, 2010, 12:47:23 pm
Aether pillars, 4 Fractals, Gravity Pillars, 6 Armagios, 3 catapults.I actually tried that deck in many ways. It loses vs AI 3 most of the times.
Fractal armagio anyone?
Well, as I understood from Zanzarino's quotes around here, it was supposed to be a card that deals with gravity's "problem" of having very high hp creatures and not that many ways to use them. It was supposed to be a "high hp can be a threat" card. I think, at least.Catapult was designed to be a threatening card. It isn't at this time.Was it designed to be a threatening card? I thought it was designed to be threatening only to stall decks
Post by: Acsabi44 on December 16, 2010, 01:17:33 pm
Post by: Lluis83 on December 16, 2010, 02:01:33 pm
Post by: xn0ize on December 16, 2010, 05:17:02 pm
you get the point
Post by: OldTrees on December 16, 2010, 05:58:05 pm
few gravity dragons and flying titan + chimera+ this ....Chimera is inefficient with this card. The law of diminishing returns is painful with this card.
you get the point
Maximum damage from a single creature with 499HP (the maximum HP) is 37 damage.
Post by: Acsabi44 on December 16, 2010, 06:28:32 pm
Post by: xn0ize on December 16, 2010, 06:41:17 pm
Post by: jmizzle7 on December 16, 2010, 07:59:54 pm
I understand your reasoning, but only to a point. How did we ever get on the subject of rushes, or how effective Catapult is at beating stall strategies? I'm talking about the pure mechanics of the card. Catapult is meant to deal unblockable damage at the cost of a creature. During the infant stages of this card's development, Zanz wanted to come up with a way for big, fat creatures to have relevance within the :gravity element. Flinging them at the opponent is a cool way to do it. During preliminary chat discussion, the damage-to-hp ratio was set at 1:1, up to 50 damage. Zanz wasn't satisfied that this was balanced enough, obviously, so he developed the formula that is currently used.Catapult was designed to be a threatening card. It isn't at this time.Was it designed to be a threatening card? I thought it was designed to be threatening only to stall decks, while being at most average against other decks (when used offensively), while when it is used to trigger death effects can't be easily judged 'how threatening it is', but then changing the formula wouldn't change much. Making it's ability usable multiple times per turn might change that situation, but I'd say that catapults are quite slow weapons and don't seem like a card attacking more often than other cards.
Right now it is good for a number of purposes (as a support card). Not excellent, just good. Buffing the damage or allowing multiple use would increase the number of uses. The question is, is this card designed to be used more than other Gravity cards? Does every new card have to be used more often than the previous cards? It's a simple card that fills some niche. Unless Zanz intended otherwise.
As for the problem with Gravity lacking speed and damage... I'd say using catapult to fix this issue would be wrong. Catapults are not meant to be fast, and their damage is supposed to be high, but expensive, so creatures should definitely have better damage/cost ratio.
This problem should be fixed with other cards that are designed to be rush cards. Maybe acceleration will fill this purpose. Maybe not, and Gravity will have to wait for even more cards. IMHO we simply shouldn't try to bend the new cards to fix problems they are not meant to fix.
Of course, if Zanz's intention was different to my interpretation, than shall be it.
Not to mention that Time's rushing capabilities, even if I know a few tricks, are still worse than Gravity's in my opinion. At least if we compare unupped vs. unupped and Upped vs. Upped.
Now here we are. Catapult is officially in development, and everybody is screaming "underpowered!" It is simply because Catapult does not deal enough damage to warrant inclusion in a deck. The only use I have seen for it is as an also-ran in a Scarab deck, on the off-chance that you might face a stall situation. Even then, many dedicated stall decks will simply laugh at Catapult because it doesn't deal enough damage to combat the recursive healing that stalls carry. All of this coming from a seige weapon? You would think a seige weapon of war would be threatening. Slow and low on ammunition, but threatening. It isn't.
Post by: smuglapse on December 16, 2010, 08:38:32 pm
I think that besides of damage it would be nice to have a effect like destroying one random enemy permanent every time you sacrifice a creature ( random to don't make it OP and only usable once a turn, or also the creature have to have a minium hp to have the effect)I like that idea.
Post by: PhantomFox on December 16, 2010, 08:51:13 pm
Post by: Korugar on December 16, 2010, 08:57:51 pm
As do I. It would reduce the effectiveness of SoGs, as well as possibly keeping someone from having enough quanta from using an important card, or taking out an annoying shield.I think that besides of damage it would be nice to have a effect like destroying one random enemy permanent every time you sacrifice a creature ( random to don't make it OP and only usable once a turn, or also the creature have to have a minium hp to have the effect)I like that idea.
Post by: jmdt on December 16, 2010, 08:57:57 pm
What if instead of dealing damage, it reduced maximum HP? That is, make it anti-heal?while healing is an issue, not dealing enough damage fast enough is a much larger issue. Then again, reducing max hp could tie into knocking down the castle walls.
Post by: Xinef on December 16, 2010, 09:27:05 pm
I understand your reasoning, but only to a point. How did we ever get on the subject of rushes, or how effective Catapult is at beating stall strategies? I'm talking about the pure mechanics of the card. Catapult is meant to deal unblockable damage at the cost of a creature. During the infant stages of this card's development, Zanz wanted to come up with a way for big, fat creatures to have relevance within the :gravity element. Flinging them at the opponent is a cool way to do it. During preliminary chat discussion, the damage-to-hp ratio was set at 1:1, up to 50 damage. Zanz wasn't satisfied that this was balanced enough, obviously, so he developed the formula that is currently used.I don't know how I got to that subject... I was writing it at about 5 am. just before going to sleep, so my mind wasn't properly working xD
Now here we are. Catapult is officially in development, and everybody is screaming "underpowered!" It is simply because Catapult does not deal enough damage to warrant inclusion in a deck. The only use I have seen for it is as an also-ran in a Scarab deck, on the off-chance that you might face a stall situation. Even then, many dedicated stall decks will simply laugh at Catapult because it doesn't deal enough damage to combat the recursive healing that stalls carry. All of this coming from a seige weapon? You would think a seige weapon of war would be threatening. Slow and low on ammunition, but threatening. It isn't.
Not everyone is screaming UP, although it might be a majority, so yeah, a buff to damage done or eg. making the card more versatile (possibility to aim at creatures/permanents for example) wouldn't hurt.
What I was trying to say in that post was probably related to my objection to suggestions that are totally against the idea of catapult, like making a single catapult fling 6 Armagios in one turn. I also remember Essence saying
After testing a lot, I support jmizzle7. The damage output is just slightly low; I believe firmly that Catapaulting 4 uninjured Elite Armagio should kill an opponent, which james'll sven's formula does without changing the card dramatically.which I don't agree with. 4 Elite Armagios are in my opinion too little, and can be achieved quite early (with PU/Fractal), as easily as let's say 4 average hitters in a rush deck (which doesn't give a win straight away). That's probably why I got the impression that someone wants to make a rush deck out of it.
Maybe Essence meant catapulting 4 uninjured Elite Armagios against an opponent without healing/stone skin, or catapulting them all at once with 4 catapults against an opponent with healing.
If so, then maybe I simply misunderstood him a bit, as if he meant that 4 Elite Armagios + 1 Catapult on the field == uncounterable win.
Post by: jmizzle7 on December 16, 2010, 09:53:34 pm
Post by: Xinef on December 16, 2010, 10:28:17 pm
Would that be enough of a buff in your opinion?
Post by: Essence on December 16, 2010, 10:56:29 pm
Quote
which I don't agree with. 4 Elite Armagios are in my opinion too little, and can be achieved quite early (with PU/Fractal), as easily as let's say 4 average hitters in a rush deck (which doesn't give a win straight away). That's probably why I got the impression that someone wants to make a rush deck out of it.
Maybe Essence meant catapulting 4 uninjured Elite Armagios against an opponent without healing/stone skin, or catapulting them all at once with 4 catapults against an opponent with healing.
If so, then maybe I simply misunderstood him a bit, as if he meant that 4 Elite Armagios + 1 Catapult on the field == uncounterable win.
Actually, the reason I said 4 Elite Armagios should equal a kill was that it's actually pretty difficult to do.
If you have 6 Armagios in a 30 card deck, you will, on average, not draw 4 of them until turn 13. Then, assuming that your opponent hasn't killed you, PCed the Catapault, or healed himself, you win! That's...unimpressive as it is.
If you go duo and pack PUs, then you speed it up a little, but you still have to draw four of come combination of PU and Armagio, keep the Catapult in play, and have an opponent with no healing. Basically, in other words, most AI3s -- but some of those will beat you, too. Of course, that's upgraded. Unupgraded should take 5 to achieve 100 dmg.
:)
Post by: BluePriest on December 16, 2010, 11:27:31 pm
Post by: Tea is good on December 17, 2010, 01:13:12 am
Or you could just chimera really quickly, then catapult for the win.Doesn't Chimera suck up all gravity quanta?
(haven't used it all too much)
Post by: willng3 on December 17, 2010, 01:26:32 am
Combines, Gravity Pulls, gains Momentum, but does not consume all gravity quanta.Or you could just chimera really quickly, then catapult for the win.Doesn't Chimera suck up all gravity quanta?
(haven't used it all too much)
Post by: BluePriest on December 17, 2010, 02:37:41 am
Post by: EvaRia on December 17, 2010, 06:49:11 am
The damage formula is now dmg=75*HP/(75+HP)
Post by: majofa on December 17, 2010, 06:55:28 am
Post by: twinsbuster on December 17, 2010, 06:56:24 am
Quote from: jmizzle7
The only use I have seen for it is as an also-ran in a Scarab deck, on the off-chance that you might face a stall situation. Even then, many dedicated stall decks will simply laugh at Catapult because it doesn't deal enough damage to combat the recursive healing that stalls carry.http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17728.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17728.0.html)
yep, Catapult is a joke.
Post by: kintar on December 17, 2010, 07:11:16 am
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Zanz buffed catapult slightly.Hmm. So...
The damage formula is now dmg=75*HP/(75+HP)
15 hp- 13 damage
20 hp- 16 damage
25 hp- 19 damage
30 hp- 22 damage
50 hp- 30 damage
75 hp- 38 damage
This looks a bit more reasonable. I still think it's somewhat underwhelming though.
Post by: BluePriest on December 17, 2010, 03:30:12 pm
Post by: jmdt on December 17, 2010, 03:41:17 pm
Post by: anakin2177 on December 17, 2010, 05:05:19 pm
Post by: ddevans96 on December 17, 2010, 05:08:48 pm
Hmm... I smell a FG coming focused around this card... After all, they can have fifty armagios in their decks...If by 50 you mean 12, then yes, a false god with this card would be nice :)
Post by: Korugar on December 17, 2010, 05:14:16 pm
The damage buff helps a lot, but gravity as a whole still needs a buff in damage. Catapult is a great first step, but its also countered pretty easily.I agree, but if we're lucky, acceleration|overdrive will be similar enough to the current idea that it'll compensate.
Post by: EvaRia on December 17, 2010, 06:53:33 pm
This will be painful =O
Post by: jmdt on December 17, 2010, 06:58:32 pm
Osiris currently has this card in trainer...??? ??? ???
This will be painful =O
That will take osiris from a decently easy win to OMGWTFBBQ.
Post by: Salamence_747 on December 17, 2010, 07:17:48 pm
Osiris currently has this card in trainer...I think that the AI is just getting to use the new cards for testing purposes. Also, that applies to all AI. So watch out for the trebuchet/silence stallbows in trainer T50. =P
This will be painful =O
Post by: jumpoffduck on December 17, 2010, 08:27:02 pm
Damage Formula: dmg=75*HP/(75+HP)
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Post by: The_Mormegil on December 17, 2010, 10:19:28 pm
EDIT: Also, 7 and 13 Voodoo Dolls.
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 17, 2010, 11:05:39 pm
Post by: frlaa on December 18, 2010, 02:53:01 am
Post by: BluePriest on December 18, 2010, 03:16:48 am
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 18, 2010, 03:23:03 am
Post by: BluePriest on December 18, 2010, 03:30:15 am
this + fractaled armagio = instant OHKO win...Yeah... if this was a gatling gun and not a catapult... You can only use the ability 1 time a turn. If you had 5 on the field, and 25 :gravity to play the armagios, and then another 5 :gravity to use each one of the catapults AND the :aether for fractal... yeah, ohko
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 18, 2010, 03:33:22 am
:)
also, i am sure that the 30 grav quantum and the 11 or 10 aether quantum shouldn't be too big of a problem, with a good number of pillars/towers, and pends
Post by: $$$man on December 18, 2010, 03:36:13 am
Catapult + Poison creature = Poison damage.
Post by: Dragoon1140 on December 18, 2010, 03:41:52 am
Amazing.
Post by: BluePriest on December 18, 2010, 03:43:02 am
Catapult + Frozen Creature = Frozen Weapon.fixed. Or at least thats what it should be. I think that would be more entertainign
Catapult + Poison creature = Poison damage.
off topic
Whyd you change your sig>?!?!!?1?1??!? its just not you.
i realize that, but still, it'd be funYeah... its only a 7 card combo too. Shouldnt be hard at all to pull off
:)
also, i am sure that the 30 grav quantum and the 11 or 10 aether quantum shouldn't be too big of a problem, with a good number of pillars/towers, and pends
Post by: $$$man on December 18, 2010, 03:46:40 am
Zanz came into chat and said those two things I posted above (before you changed them)Catapult + Frozen Creature = Frozen Weapon.fixed. Or at least thats what it should be. I think that would be more entertainign
Catapult + Poison creature = Poison damage.
off topic
Whyd you change your sig>?!?!!?1?1??!? its just not you.
About the sig: What do you mean?
Post by: BluePriest on December 18, 2010, 04:03:26 am
Post by: $$$man on December 18, 2010, 04:08:10 am
Strange.... just a moment ago it showed your sig as a quantum tower... the old one. I wish he would make it freeze the weapon instead. It would be fun to have more ways to do that.Oh you mean mah profile pic, that got screwed up when i was trying to edit mah sig. LOL. But back on topic, I still don't think catapult is powerful enough to enjoy a place in most any deck.
Post by: BluePriest on December 18, 2010, 04:16:06 am
Post by: K1N5L4Y3R on December 18, 2010, 04:31:21 am
Post by: jmizzle7 on December 18, 2010, 06:07:25 am
Post by: twinsbuster on December 18, 2010, 06:18:09 am
Wait.... frozen gets 20% more damage, and infected deals that much poison too? That's awesome....frozen creatures = 30% chance to freeze weapon
petrified (delayed) creatures = plus 20% damage
infected creatures = plus that much poison damage
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 18, 2010, 06:21:42 am
petrified (delayed) creatures = plus 20% damageAwesome synergy with Basilisk Blood right there
Post by: kintar on December 18, 2010, 06:24:02 am
They might be worth using on Voodoo Dolls though. Freeze will also freeze your opponent's weapon, and poison is effectively doubled.
Post by: hainkarga on December 18, 2010, 07:06:08 am
Post by: grindpower on December 18, 2010, 01:35:46 pm
Idea 1: I think when you click catapult on a target the catapult should combine the targets attack and defence as damage to the opponent.
For example:
10|10 Golden Dragon + Catapult = 20 Damage to the opponent's health.
1|25 Armagio + Catapult = 26 Damage to the opponent's health.
This would make some cooler decks to play with. It won't be too powerful because some Creature Control can lower the creature's health and/or kill it. Also Miracles and Heals will help.
Idea 2: I think Catapult should be able to target creatures OR the opponent's health.
For example:
Otyugh is about to gobble up a 3|2 Fallen Elf. 3|2 Fallen Elf + Catapult = 5 Damage. Which is enough to kill an upped Otyugh that hasn't eaten anything.
This would allow some defence.
Post your comments and please say which idea you are talking about.
Post by: grindpower on December 18, 2010, 01:41:20 pm
Idea 1: I think when you click catapult on a target the catapult should combine the targets attack and defence as damage to the opponent.
For example:
10|10 Golden Dragon + Catapult = 20 Damage to the opponent's health.
1|25 Armagio + Catapult = 26 Damage to the opponent's health.
This would make some cooler decks to play with. It won't be too powerful because some Creature Control can lower the creature's health and/or kill it. Also Miracles and Heals will help.
Idea 2: I think Catapult should be able to target creatures OR the opponent's health.
For example:
Otyugh is about to gobble up a 3|2 Fallen Elf. 3|2 Fallen Elf + Catapult = 5 Damage. Which is enough to kill an upped Otyugh that hasn't eaten anything.
This would allow some defence.
Post your comments and please say which idea you are talking about.
Post by: lokiburn4 on December 18, 2010, 01:50:05 pm
The whole Malignant Cell, Amber nymph thing sounds interesting...
Post by: BluePriest on December 18, 2010, 02:19:54 pm
Post by: Indrejue on December 18, 2010, 06:52:48 pm
Post by: BluePriest on December 18, 2010, 11:22:16 pm
Post by: Indrejue on December 19, 2010, 03:24:43 am
Post by: Xrbeta on December 19, 2010, 01:08:31 pm
Post by: Hodari on December 20, 2010, 06:17:52 pm
- makes Death nymph and Afla useless too. Flinging first cell is hilarious. "Oh no you wont, go away!". Also makes "board lock" completely impossible.Don't you mean flinging the SECOND one and keeping the first one to make another one you can fling next turn etc.? ;)
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 20, 2010, 07:50:30 pm
well, that's what 2 grav quanta for 2 dmg? yeah... lol
Post by: Hodari on December 20, 2010, 07:57:11 pm
lol, at malignant cellsYeah, not overly effective unless you have a nymph as well to make them bigger before flinging em but if you have nothing else to throw at the time, better than nothing anyway :)
well, that's what 2 grav quanta for 2 dmg? yeah... lol
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 20, 2010, 08:35:45 pm
earth nymph + malignant cells + catapults
Post by: Xinef on December 20, 2010, 08:50:34 pm
new deck!!!instead of malignant cells you can use any creature generator. FFQ would be troublesome due to 2 required quanta types, boneyard is cheaper than aflatoxin, but requires some CC to work, pharaoh is a good choice though since it already synergizes with :gravity
earth nymph + malignant cells + catapults
The question remains, how to make a balanced trio (:earth :gravity :death or :earth :gravity :time)
All these elements have strong synergies between them though, so you can always mix a number of combos (eg. pulvy, eq, rewinds, bonewalls) for a whole family of decks.
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 20, 2010, 09:11:23 pm
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 20, 2010, 10:08:24 pm
phoenix works wonders here... u only need a mark to power it (assuming it's upped), and u can have some grav pillars/towers and some earth pillars/towers to power the catapult and the nymph
brilliant!!!
Post by: Daxx on December 20, 2010, 10:15:13 pm
25hp will do 19 damage. 45hp after one BB will do 29 damage. Beyond that it becomes a bit of a waste to BB it further.
Post by: Essence on December 21, 2010, 08:11:14 am
Also, the idea of continually flinging the same Petrified Phoenix at an enemy over and over again is the stuff that my dreams are made of...
Post by: jmdt on December 21, 2010, 09:06:48 am
Post by: Italy2 on December 27, 2010, 03:30:00 am
Post by: Joeysandwich on December 27, 2010, 01:03:41 pm
If you asked me that effect is a little bit unbalanced. Only made it through because I had ridiculous healing ability in that deck.
Post by: Zeru on December 27, 2010, 01:20:23 pm
If you have a poison attrition deck beware. This one will kill you every time. AI had at least 7 dragons out and thought my shards could handle it for a many turns before popping off a miracle since my carapace was taking care of the lower health ones neatly. A pair of catapults comes along and I wasn't paying attention. Within about three turns I was the AI had another few dragons out and I was sucking up at least 20 poison damage per turn.Imbalanced effect?
If you asked me that effect is a little bit unbalanced. Only made it through because I had ridiculous healing ability in that deck.
Costs:
Summon many dragons- ~80 quanta
Summon 2 catapults - 6 :gravity
Hope that your opponent has carapace shield - extreme luck
Effect:
20 poison
Now to compare
Costs:
6 deadly poison - 12 :death
two hits with arsenic - 2 :death
Effect:
20 poison
Post by: Joeysandwich on December 27, 2010, 02:06:17 pm
You can also use it with inexpensive creatures too.
Post by: tallguy2241 on December 29, 2010, 04:58:15 pm
Post by: TheonlyrealBeef on December 29, 2010, 05:34:18 pm
Has anyone else noticed, that after a catapult fires (at least, an AI controlled one, I haven't tried a catapult deck myself yet), that the sound effects for individual attacks shut off? All other sound effects seem to be there, just the ones for attacks go silent. And it carries over unless I reload the game.Yes, I have already reported it as a bug. (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,17989.0.html)
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 29, 2010, 06:19:01 pm
Post by: Drobbit on December 29, 2010, 10:53:17 pm
Post by: Essence on December 29, 2010, 10:54:45 pm
Post by: Drobbit on December 29, 2010, 10:56:08 pm
Or, you know, permanent control of any kind.Yes. I was saying: where the f.... is my pulvy? :)
Post by: asymmetry on December 30, 2010, 01:35:41 am
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on December 30, 2010, 02:20:49 am
Fun tip VS Osiris with CCYB?: antimatter some early pharaohs, negative attack creatures have more priority for trebuchet than frozen ones. It sure delays the scarab swarm.I hate doing that... I know it helps, but I hate having to reload the game, so I can get my sound back...
Post by: zse on December 30, 2010, 10:39:59 am
Fun tip VS Osiris with CCYB?: antimatter some early pharaohs, negative attack creatures have more priority for trebuchet than frozen ones. It sure delays the scarab swarm.Fun tip VS Osiris with DoSA?: Don't pop multiple Retroviruses in one turn when Osiris has multiple Trebuchets on board. That way you avoid getting couple dozen poison counters during next rounds... :-[
Post by: collimatrix on January 01, 2011, 02:15:07 am
Post by: GG on January 01, 2011, 03:48:52 am
New Change: The Catapult | Trebuchet now deals 20% additional damage if you fling a frozen creature, and if you fling an Infected creature, it adds Poison counters to the opponent equal to the number of Infection counters on the creature.Sorta says on the first page, but sure.
Post by: kintar on January 03, 2011, 02:26:55 am
Post by: zse on January 03, 2011, 07:02:46 am
I believe this card isn't meant to be a primary damage dealing method. Rather, it's meant to counter CC such as freeze, antimatter, infection, and basilisk blood.Maybe so, but all you lucky ones having :death Nymph can now use this to poison opponent.
Post by: Thalas on January 08, 2011, 09:36:40 am
I believe this card isn't meant to be a primary damage dealing method. Rather, it's meant to counter CC such as freeze, antimatter, infection, and basilisk blood.I disagree, I tried in trainer catapult + Titan.
Post by: Seekhart on January 25, 2011, 02:48:28 pm
Post by: maurotyler on February 05, 2011, 07:20:56 am
Post by: TheIdioticIdiot on February 05, 2011, 12:40:05 pm
Yeap, but after that it drops radically.. got an armagio up to 290hp, it deals around ~65 damage (don't remember exactly.. did a chart before reading sacred's post).. Not worth it considering turn cost.. now with 2x Grey Nymphs it might get interesting.. Otyugh, Soul Catchers, Bonewalls, Boneyards, Death Stalkers, Momentum.. I think I'll try it right now.. (don't have high hopes though.. poison always lets down)[offtopic] "sacred's post"? lol, SG got a worshipperf [/offtopic]
yeah, the damage is best at around 30~60
Post by: maurotyler on February 05, 2011, 05:28:58 pm
Found the snap of it:
(http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/4388/trebuchet.th.png) (http://img810.imageshack.us/i/trebuchet.png/)
[off] just noticed the typo :$ .. sorry!!!!! [/off]
Post by: funerallaughter on March 02, 2011, 11:40:44 pm
Reference to angry birds? ;D
Post by: doublecross on March 02, 2011, 11:58:31 pm
Post by: Higurashi on July 02, 2011, 03:00:22 am
Quote
[14:11:17] zanzarino: Ok, one more small patch to the beta: I just added a description of the arena (only for the first time you open it)Also seen here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,28148.0.html
[14:11:33] zanzarino: And moved the max damage of catapults up to 100
[14:12:49] willng3: So wait, does that modify the damage formula?
[14:13:15] zanzarino: yes the 75 is now 100 in that formula
Post by: TStar on July 02, 2011, 03:53:16 am
Post by: Jocko on July 02, 2011, 10:47:40 pm
This buff makes me happy in strange places.._.
Post by: Rember on July 03, 2011, 09:35:21 am
:3This buff makes me happy in strange places.._.
(But yeah, this is pretty huge, now it's only 3 titans to do 100 damage, gogo catapult decks.)
Post by: Xenocidius on July 04, 2011, 09:34:47 am
And speaking of Osiris, his possession of Catapult makes him counter CCYB heavily - he flings frozen and antimattered creatures. For me, it's the highest Pulverizing priority.
Post by: ralouf on July 04, 2011, 09:52:45 am
He didn't flings frozen creature if he has empty creature slot if I good remember.
Osiris is easy with CCYB.
Post by: Xenocidius on July 04, 2011, 10:03:43 am
If you are clever enough you wait to have pulvy and destroy those cata before playing AM.Yes, that's what I do too, but often you don't draw it in time.
He didn't flings frozen creature if he has empty creature slot if I good remember.
Osiris is easy with CCYB.
And I believe he does fling them immediately after they are frozen.
Post by: ralouf on July 04, 2011, 11:02:49 am
I dunno how works the AI with fling/frozen creature
Post by: Bhlewos on July 13, 2011, 09:12:38 pm
Table of Damage
by Bhlewos
Damage Formula: dmg=100*HP/(100+HP)
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|
|
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And here's a graph comparing the old values to the new. Apologies for the step-like-ness of the graphs, I used the integer values.
(http://i786.photobucket.com/albums/yy150/BhlewosAQW/ElementsTheGame/catapultChart.png)
Post by: doublecross on July 13, 2011, 09:28:19 pm
Post by: coinich on July 13, 2011, 11:43:43 pm
Post by: Bhlewos on July 13, 2011, 11:46:40 pm
Post by: doublecross on July 13, 2011, 11:52:28 pm
Post by: Falcon4415 on July 14, 2011, 12:09:50 am
Flinging frozen stuff at the enemy has been studied (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,18774.msg255493.html).
Post by: teffy on July 14, 2011, 12:22:36 am
The effect of the new formula is normally <=5 damage points per creature (Titan: 30 damage -> 34 damage, frozen Titan: 39 dmg-> 44 dmg). For Titan, it means, that you have to throw 3 Titans- not 4 - to defeat a 100 HP enemy.
Post by: SniperElit on July 23, 2011, 02:16:58 pm
Post by: hello12 on September 25, 2011, 02:52:31 am
Post by: OldTrees on September 25, 2011, 03:03:44 am
I am confused. Please explain.1) Play a creature
2) Play Catapult
3) Activate Catapult's skill
4) Target your creature
5) Your creature dies and the opponent takes damage from the bag of flesh to the face
The damage dealt is based on the hp of the sacrificed creature. (higher hp creatures deal more damage because they are heavier)
If the sacrificed creature was frozen the damage dealt is increased. (shards of ice to the face hurt)
Also creatures that are infected will poison the opponent on impact. (toxic flesh is toxic)
Post by: hello12 on September 25, 2011, 03:29:31 am
Post by: rosutosefi on September 25, 2011, 04:09:01 am
Meaning that it deals damage about the same as the creature when it is tossed at small hp (as lim[100x/(100+x)] as x approaches 0 is x. erm. You know what I mean)
And maximum is 100 when creature hp is at infinity (Again. lim[100x/(100+x)] as x approaches +infinity is 100)
100 is an asymptote, that's why you will never deal 100 damage.
The higher the hp, the lower the damage/hp ratio. So a small creature with 1hp will deal 1 damage (100/101 ~ 1) and a 100hp creature will deal 50 dmg (100/200 = 50)
Post by: BluexLightning on October 08, 2011, 05:03:03 pm
Post by: Korugar on October 08, 2011, 07:35:13 pm
Post by: Bhlewos on October 08, 2011, 08:34:12 pm
Post by: Jocko on October 08, 2011, 08:35:32 pm
Post by: MilitiaDude on June 30, 2012, 02:01:12 am
Post by: Thooza on October 29, 2012, 09:56:23 pm
Post by: Higurashi on November 01, 2012, 08:44:00 am
Welp, 10k HP gives you 99 damage, but the max HP for a creature is 499 anyway, which does 83 damage. That's not counting the effect of Freeze though. With Freeze you need 67 HP to do 100 (.5) damage.
Post by: salox on March 06, 2013, 06:48:29 pm
Post by: Dm on June 15, 2013, 12:23:57 pm
It's the damage the creature will give.
Magic.
Post by: dawn to dusk on October 19, 2013, 05:37:19 am
Post by: seulintse on November 12, 2014, 09:09:34 pm
Post by: Dm on November 12, 2014, 11:06:36 pm
just noticed that when you click cata for its ability then hover over a creature, it shoes how much damage it will do XD
When you use catapult, place your mouse over the creature you're about to fling. Don't fling it, just hover the mouse. Now look at the top left of the catapult card.
It's the damage the creature will give.
Magic.
ITT : How not to read the post directly above yours