Catapult | Trebuchet

[Korugar]

I think that besides of damage it would be nice to have a effect like destroying one random enemy permanent every time you sacrifice a creature ( random to don't make it OP and only usable once a turn, or also the creature have to have a minium hp to have the effect)

I like that idea.

As do I. It would reduce the effectiveness of SoGs, as well as possibly keeping someone from having enough quanta from using an important card, or taking out an annoying shield.

[jmdt]

What if instead of dealing damage, it reduced maximum HP?  That is, make it anti-heal?

while healing is an issue, not dealing enough damage fast enough is a much larger issue.  Then again, reducing max hp could tie into knocking down the castle walls.

[Xinef]

I understand your reasoning, but only to a point. How did we ever get on the subject of rushes, or how effective Catapult is at beating stall strategies? I'm talking about the pure mechanics of the card. Catapult is meant to deal unblockable damage at the cost of a creature. During the infant stages of this card's development, Zanz wanted to come up with a way for big, fat creatures to have relevance within the element. Flinging them at the opponent is a cool way to do it. During preliminary chat discussion, the damage-to-hp ratio was set at 1:1, up to 50 damage. Zanz wasn't satisfied that this was balanced enough, obviously, so he developed the formula that is currently used.

Now here we are. Catapult is officially in development, and everybody is screaming "underpowered!" It is simply because Catapult does not deal enough damage to warrant inclusion in a deck. The only use I have seen for it is as an also-ran in a Scarab deck, on the off-chance that you might face a stall situation. Even then, many dedicated stall decks will simply laugh at Catapult because it doesn't deal enough damage to combat the recursive healing that stalls carry. All of this coming from a seige weapon? You would think a seige weapon of war would be threatening. Slow and low on ammunition, but threatening. It isn't.

I don't know how I got to that subject... I was writing it at about 5 am. just before going to sleep, so my mind wasn't properly working xD

Not everyone is screaming UP, although it might be a majority, so yeah, a buff to damage done or eg. making the card more versatile (possibility to aim at creatures/permanents for example) wouldn't hurt.

What I was trying to say in that post was probably related to my objection to suggestions that are totally against the idea of catapult, like making a single catapult fling 6 Armagios in one turn. I also remember Essence saying

After testing a lot, I support jmizzle7.   The damage output is just slightly low; I believe firmly that Catapaulting 4 uninjured Elite Armagio should kill an opponent, which james'll sven's formula does without changing the card dramatically.

which I don't agree with. 4 Elite Armagios are in my opinion too little, and can be achieved quite early (with PU/Fractal), as easily as let's say 4 average hitters in a rush deck (which doesn't give a win straight away). That's probably why I got the impression that someone wants to make a rush deck out of it.

Maybe Essence meant catapulting 4 uninjured Elite Armagios against an opponent without healing/stone skin, or catapulting them all at once with 4 catapults against an opponent with healing.
If so, then maybe I simply misunderstood him a bit, as if he meant that 4 Elite Armagios + 1 Catapult on the field == uncounterable win.

[jmizzle7]

Right. I don't think Catapult should fire more than once per turn for the sole reason that it is a catapult and not a gatling gun. I don't think it should be a monstrous cannon that will kill you if you let it stay for one turn, either. I just think it's underpowered to the point where I would never use it. Testing a new card in fully upped decks shouldn't yield questionable results against AI level 3. Catapult does just that, because it can not stand alone, nor can it play a solid supporting role.

[Xinef]

How about increasing the damage a little (replacing 40 with 50 in the formula), and removing the cost of the ability (you are already sacrificing a creature, why do you need to pay quanta too?)

Would that be enough of a buff in your opinion?

[Essence]

which I don't agree with. 4 Elite Armagios are in my opinion too little, and can be achieved quite early (with PU/Fractal), as easily as let's say 4 average hitters in a rush deck (which doesn't give a win straight away). That's probably why I got the impression that someone wants to make a rush deck out of it.

Maybe Essence meant catapulting 4 uninjured Elite Armagios against an opponent without healing/stone skin, or catapulting them all at once with 4 catapults against an opponent with healing.
If so, then maybe I simply misunderstood him a bit, as if he meant that 4 Elite Armagios + 1 Catapult on the field == uncounterable win.

Actually, the reason I said 4 Elite Armagios should equal a kill was that it's actually pretty difficult to do.

If you have 6 Armagios in a 30 card deck, you will, on average, not draw 4 of them until turn 13.  Then, assuming that your opponent hasn't killed you, PCed the Catapault, or healed himself, you win!  That's...unimpressive as it is.

If you go duo and pack PUs, then you speed it up a little, but you still have to draw four of come combination of PU and Armagio, keep the Catapult in play, and have an opponent with no healing.  Basically, in other words, most AI3s -- but some of those will beat you, too.  Of course, that's upgraded.  Unupgraded should take 5 to achieve 100 dmg.

[BluePriest]

Right now, you are spending 6  a turn for 18 damage. And that is IF you have the card. Gravity doesnt really have any good stall cards either while waiting for those cards, or any healing. Gravity Force may be decent CC, but it requires you to have good attackers. A deck built around this card is way too fragile. You cant even use armagios GP because it will lower your damage output.

[Tea is good]

Or you could just chimera really quickly, then catapult for the win.

Doesn't Chimera suck up all gravity quanta?
 (haven't used it all too much)

[willng3]

Or you could just chimera really quickly, then catapult for the win.

Doesn't Chimera suck up all gravity quanta?
 (haven't used it all too much)

Combines, Gravity Pulls, gains Momentum, but does not consume all gravity quanta.

[BluePriest]

at 40 max damage,, and it requiring 75 hp to be able to do even 27, youre probably better off using the chimera. and NOT catapulting it.

[EvaRia]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Zanz buffed catapult slightly.

The damage formula is now dmg=75*HP/(75+HP)

[majofa]

Ya, Armagio now flings for 22 damage.