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Xiahou Dun

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Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24314#msg24314
« on: February 08, 2010, 06:27:30 pm »
I see a lot of people actively trying to come up with ideas for "Anti-Rainbow Cards" "Mono only cards" or whatever else the kids are calling it these days. I remember being surprised at how the Black Hole card was met by certain people with a massively positive reception not because of the idea or the effectiveness but SOLELY off the concept that it was most effective against Rainbow decks.

While it's all very well to say that "Rainbows are too powerful" or "Everyone plays Rainbows and we want to see more Mono, Duo and Trio usage" to say that Rainbows need Nerfs and Counters seems to show a lack of foresight and understanding on why a Rainbow Deck is actually so effective. This confuses me even more seeing as I often see what seems to be quite upstanding members of the community making these comments.

Anyway I'm not going to just tell you that you're barking up the wrong tree randomly and be off, I'm merely pleading my case, hear me out and see what you think..

We begin with the smallest and simplest of questions.

What is the goal of deckbuilding?

If you said "To allow yourself the best chances to win a game" you'd be perfectly correct but I was assuming that was a given and was implying "how do we go about doing that?" the answer I was looking for was this.

To balance both Effectiveness and Diversity.

Some cards are extremely effective and you may want to have multiples of them, but you also want to have enough diversity to be able to deal with different types of decks and different challenges so you cannot just repeat the same few cards too many times if you're trying to build a reliable deck that can deal with any other kind of strategy out there. They merely make great "One Trick Pony" decks. (Unless you happen to have stumbled upon something INCREDIBLY Game Breaking : D)

(The two other main things that come to mind are "deck size" and "card synergy" but I believe these are merely specific parts of the above, size being an issue when trying to add diversity and synergy being a way to add effectiveness.)

The reason a Rainbow is so powerful of course is that it has easy access to both of these things. By taking a few excellent cards from each Elemental pool it can have a deck full of powerful and useful cards while still remaining diverse. This in itself is not a problem, I do not believe that Rainbow is broken or in need of a nerf or counter. I think Rainbow is merely further down its evolutionary path then Mono's and Duo's.

You see the problem is not that Rainbow can be effective and diverse but that other decks have problems doing so. There are a very small number of cards to work with in each Elemental pool and if you are drawing from them all it is easy to find enough good ones. But to limit yourself is to limit the number of good cards you have available to you, and to limit the number of cards is to limit the diversity. Mono and Duo decks are generally faced with the choice of taking lesser effective cards to increase their diversity or to sacrifice diversity for effectiveness.

The problem lies I believe in simply the age of the game. This game is very young and small right now (Comparatively) as it grows up many more cards will likely be added to the game and as they are added to the game the pool of cards for each Element will grow. As this happens look further down the line and you will see a Mono Air or Fire/Air deck have many more cards to draw from and they will have enough great cards to field a deck with a lot of effectiveness but not lacking in diversity. Rainbow however will not change. The cards we see Rainbow typically using could end up looking very different, but the overall usefulness of Rainbow will remain where it is as Rainbow has always had enough cards to choose from and with more cards in each deck working towards that decks strengths Rainbow could fall a little as more specific decks will have a lot of synergy options to balance Rainbows slightly higher access to diversity.

However should we start down the road of catering cards to defeat or be useless to Rainbow decks the future of the game will look very different. Too much focus on reducing the current threat rather then aiming for balance as a goal rather then a short term fix and Rainbow will find itself sorely lacking in days to come. It may be that Rainbow becomes almost completely unplayable when compared to more effective Mono and Duo decks. Perhaps so much so that there will need to be "Anti-Mono" cards and strategys implemented to adress the new situation and the cycle will begin again the game having not improved at all in the end.

So I ask you not to seek to counter or deny Rainbow strength but merely to build upon the cards available to all decks and watch as the other decks quickly catch up to Rainbow in effectiveness.



Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24333#msg24333
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 07:28:38 pm »
Rainbow has already been "nerfed" because of improved AI and additional false gods that are particularly difficult for rainbow decks. The control archetype known as rainbow is just one of a veritable cornucopia of deck strategies, but it is massively popular for its ability to beat the false gods. But there are a couple of other deck strategies that work decently against the false gods with some success. There are cards like Stone Skin, Antimatter, and Basilisk's Blood that are very good outside the rainbow archetype. I say wait it out. The game is much more balanced than it used to be and will continue to become more and more so.

Xiahou Dun

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24335#msg24335
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 07:38:09 pm »
Rainbow has already been "nerfed" because of improved AI and additional false gods that are particularly difficult for rainbow decks.


Do you think that CCG games SHOULD be balanced around the way you play an AI? I certainly don't...Doubly so an AI that uses its own unique characteristics like Triple Marks, Deck Size etc.

I say wait it out..
That's sorta what I said in the above post.


Scaredgirl

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24344#msg24344
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2010, 07:54:53 pm »
Lack of cards has never been the biggest issue. If we only add cards, those cards will be available to rainbow player as well.

Lets say we add 10 cards to each element. The mono-player gets 10 more cards to choose from while rainbow player gets 120. See what I'm saying?

The problem is, and always has been, that there are too many cheap yet very effective cards available for rainbow decks to use.

Otyugh is a good example of this. It's a relatively cheap with and an insane ability. One Otyugh can easily be the difference between life and death. Now if I play mono-gravity, Otyugh isn't that overpowered because I'm lacking the synergy with Rain of Fire, Heavy Armor, etc. But when I play rainbow, I can cherry-pick all the best cheap cards making my deck much stronger than mono-decks.

The game would be easily balanced by nerfing all these low-cost overpowered cards like Otyugh. With a higher cost, rainbow decks couldn't use them as effectively, but mono-decks could because they can gather that one quantum faster.

Best balance would be achieved by dividing the cards roughly to three categories:

Low cost: Weak creatures with weak abilities (cheap enough for rainbows)
Medium cost: Medium creatures with medium abilities (getting a bit expensive for rainbows)
High cost: Strong creatures with awesome abilities (too expensive for rainbows)

This is the most logical solution to this whole "rainbows are overpowered" discussion.

Tea is good

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24347#msg24347
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 08:04:09 pm »
Hmmm, I think the major advantage of the rainbow is in its flexibility to situations. The cheap cards should be nerfed, but the rainbows will always be an integral part of elements. Rainbows allow you to go into a fight knowing you are ready, I'm glad to say there are no fights I just turn down because my build can't beat them. Rainbows might be beaten by a highly specialized mono-deck once in a while, but this is the price to pay when you can beat everyone else in the game, not just a select few.

Offline jmizzle7

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24351#msg24351
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 08:12:09 pm »
My argument is that as more and more cards are added, card space in a rainbow deck becomes much, much more valuable. There are some really, really good cards available now like Aflatoxin, Antimatter, and Rage Potion, but there just isn't enough space in a rainbow deck for them. As more and more cards are added, rainbow decks will definitely improve, but not at the same pace non-rainbows will, because there will be too many cards to use in a single deck effectively. Gotta love the law of diminishing returns...

Xiahou Dun

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24382#msg24382
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 09:45:29 pm »
Lack of cards has never been the biggest issue. If we only add cards, those cards will be available to rainbow player as well.

Lets say we add 10 cards to each element. The mono-player gets 10 more cards to choose from while rainbow player gets 120. See what I'm saying?
However a numerical advantage means less and less as the numbers involved get higher and higher. Jmizzle agrees with me on this point and his explanation is sufficient so I'll simply leave you with that.

My argument is that as more and more cards are added, card space in a rainbow deck becomes much, much more valuable. There are some really, really good cards available now like Aflatoxin, Antimatter, and Rage Potion, but there just isn't enough space in a rainbow deck for them. As more and more cards are added, rainbow decks will definitely improve, but not at the same pace non-rainbows will, because there will be too many cards to use in a single deck effectively. Gotta love the law of diminishing returns...
Otyugh is a good example of this. It's a relatively cheap with and an insane ability. One Otyugh can easily be the difference between life and death. Now if I play mono-gravity, Otyugh isn't that overpowered because I'm lacking the synergy with Rain of Fire, Heavy Armor, etc. But when I play rainbow, I can cherry-pick all the best cheap cards making my deck much stronger than mono-decks.
You're touching upon exactly what I was saying only you're looking at it in a different way. It's not that some crazy Rainbow Magic makes Otyugh better. It's just that Rainbow has access to cards that work well with Otyugh while Gravity lacks its own equivalents. Now what I am saying is rather then lament at how Rainbow can use these cards and seek to take it away from them why not wait until Gravity has this luxury too?

Every Element seems to be set on a path to gain access to its own take on each simple concept like Healing, Damage, Creature control etc. Not every Element has yet gained all of these things. And Gravity should, if it is designed properly gain much better synergy with itself then Rainbow can have with outside cards. Look further down the line when Gravity has access to these things. Sure Rainbow can use Gravity cards too, and their equivalents but eventually it is no real big issue. Procrastination is not unduly bothered by Ice Shield also being able to delay attackers, Arsenic is not afraid of Chrysaora having its own way to stack Poison they simply have their own niche and specific way of doing something that works for them. That something similar exists is no big deal.

Gravity Shield is a good example of how Gravity already shows the beginnings of good synergy with its Otyugh with the ability to munch through small creatures and leave the large ones achieving nothing. If molded right Otyugh will work extremely well with Gravity supplements to Health or ways to cut enemies into bite sized portions and Grav's Otyugh should be more efficient then Rainbow Otyugh as the best Otyugh partners should eventually be other Gravity cards for the new Gravity will be designed to work well with the Gravity that already exists. Gravity can make full use of this while Rainbow won't have sufficient Gravity quantum generation to use so many Gravity cards and will have to make do with alternatives from other Elements which do a satisfactory though second-rate job.

Rainbows leveller though will be the ability to throw out interesting combinations like Otyugh and Firefly Queens and Otyugh with Graveyards for renewable munchings or Quintessence so that the Otyugh doesn't care that Gravity Otyugh grow bigger and stronger faster as it is safe from them and can focus on controlling the other creatures Gravity uses rather then simply racing the Otyugh to gain enough size to swallow them. These tricks and nuances can serve to balance the lower general core effectiveness.

However if we take this route...

The game would be easily balanced by nerfing all these low-cost overpowered cards like Otyugh. With a higher cost, rainbow decks couldn't use them as effectively, but mono-decks could because they can gather that one quantum faster.

Best balance would be achieved by dividing the cards roughly to three categories:

Low cost: Weak creatures with weak abilities (cheap enough for rainbows)
Medium cost: Medium creatures with medium abilities (getting a bit expensive for rainbows)
High cost: Strong creatures with awesome abilities (too expensive for rainbows)
This indeed as I already stated provides a quick fix but what happens later? What happens when Gravity too can give it's Otyugh Health boosts or lower the Health of a crowd of potential Devour Spam food. What is Rainbow left with? The Mono's can now play their strong cards the Rainbows can't match and still have access to a wide range of effects. Sure they don't have the pick and choose of incredibly specific versions of these effects but what does an Otyugh really care if you give it +3 from Plate Armour or from Blessing with the bonus of attack or +1 plus Shield ignorance from Momentum? They're all simply different routes to the same goal. Rainbow will always have more paths but they will eventually all gain at least one route to reach the same destinations and Mono's strength will win out in the end.

Then Rainbow is left in a sorry state poor and hard to play. And there will need to be something done to adress the strength of Mono. If this situation is met with cries of "Nerf Mono!" then sadly the lesson will not be learned and the motions will be gone through again.


This is the most logical solution to this whole "rainbows are overpowered" discussion.
I would disagree. I don't think it's the most logical. Merely the quickest. But that speed could come at a cost. Mono will catch up to Rainbow as the game grows. If we slow Rainbow down now Mono will move too far past it eventually rather then reaching the same finish.


Offline Glitch

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24385#msg24385
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 09:55:51 pm »
I still say a quick dab of kinship will make all your rainbow problems go away.

You know what, I'ma go make the kinship elements cards.  I'll be riiiight back.

ScytherLoL

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24387#msg24387
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 09:59:42 pm »
What do you mean by kinship cards that sounds like a fun exercise to be a part of.

I like the idea of balance and finding the synergy in cards. As to rainbow, well I've never been one and still haven't found one that will beat me every time so I don't really think they need a heck of a lot of nerfing just a few touch ups or new cards to the monos would bring about the balance I would say.

Anyway thats my two cents worth.

Thanks

Scyther

Offline Glitch

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24393#msg24393
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 10:28:52 pm »
Kinship, in MTG, is the term for where cards of similar types get bonuses.  EG, if the next card you draw is from aether, this aether card is untargetable for a turn.  Hey, that's not a bad card idea!  Shoot, shoulda done those instead of what I actually put in the thread.

Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24691#msg24691
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 12:14:07 am »
It all pans out in the end... Fair is fair.  8)

ScytherLoL

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Re: Why we shouldn't be trying to nerf or counter Rainbows. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2898.msg24700#msg24700
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 12:27:56 am »
Yes indeed but still nice to have some better cards to use in monos although some already have enough good cards.

Scyther

 

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