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Toge111

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Re: Why the game has to be so unrewarding? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12851.msg162975#msg162975
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2010, 04:01:07 pm »
I have found in my long gaming experience that games with smaller proportional rewards for playing time are actually more rewarding overall (not to play on words). The paradigm shift in the video game industry towards group-play is in part thanks to the online medium but is largely a result of a realization of what I've said: People are more loyal to a game, and in the long run enjoy a game more when it is difficult to advance. And it's not hard to understand why: simply put, when you spend an entire week playing for a small in-game achievement, then you are less likely to walk away from the game at the end of that week, since you'd be throwing away "all of that work." If anything, the gradual reward system is therefore much more addictive than a quick-high system you might get otherwise; and the euphemism is intentional here. Drugs that give smaller-dose highs on average tend to be MORE addictive than harder drugs. Counter-intuitive but true.
- I was being unclear. My point was more against penalties than in favor of high rewards. Industry has definitely moved away from those. Some 15 years ago we had games where, if you died, you literally had to press the reset button in console and start all over. Then there was "lives" and game would save progress at the start of level. Then there was external saving and save slots in console. In games like Commandos: Behind the enemy lines there was compulsion to hit the save button every minute, because in spite of careful planning there was always something that could go wrong and cause mission to fail. Finally we've come to a point where players expect to respawn just a few seconds after death happens.

Failing should have consequence, but isn't not winning a consequence in itself? Some games have played it cool by letting everyone win, but some players get better 'grade' and there's always stuff where you can improve on. I think this is a much better system to circumvent negative emotions.

One round of false gods costs 30 coins. That's really twice the amount of average win at level 3. New players get their ass handed to them and on top of that they are even farther from good decks in spite of trying. Playing against good decks is a good challenge, but the money aspect is just arbitrary.

Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: Why the game has to be so unrewarding? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12851.msg162995#msg162995
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2010, 04:50:33 pm »
I have found in my long gaming experience that games with smaller proportional rewards for playing time are actually more rewarding overall (not to play on words). The paradigm shift in the video game industry towards group-play is in part thanks to the online medium but is largely a result of a realization of what I've said: People are more loyal to a game, and in the long run enjoy a game more when it is difficult to advance. And it's not hard to understand why: simply put, when you spend an entire week playing for a small in-game achievement, then you are less likely to walk away from the game at the end of that week, since you'd be throwing away "all of that work." If anything, the gradual reward system is therefore much more addictive than a quick-high system you might get otherwise; and the euphemism is intentional here. Drugs that give smaller-dose highs on average tend to be MORE addictive than harder drugs. Counter-intuitive but true.
- I was being unclear. My point was more against penalties than in favor of high rewards. Industry has definitely moved away from those. Some 15 years ago we had games where, if you died, you literally had to press the reset button in console and start all over. Then there was "lives" and game would save progress at the start of level. Then there was external saving and save slots in console. In games like Commandos: Behind the enemy lines there was compulsion to hit the save button every minute, because in spite of careful planning there was always something that could go wrong and cause mission to fail. Finally we've come to a point where players expect to respawn just a few seconds after death happens.

Failing should have consequence, but isn't not winning a consequence in itself? Some games have played it cool by letting everyone win, but some players get better 'grade' and there's always stuff where you can improve on. I think this is a much better system to circumvent negative emotions.

One round of false gods costs 30 coins. That's really twice the amount of average win at level 3. New players get their ass handed to them and on top of that they are even farther from good decks in spite of trying. Playing against good decks is a good challenge, but the money aspect is just arbitrary.
Well I guess from the perspective of a new player this makes sense. Nonetheless, False Gods need to be especially difficult in order to pose a challenge to top players at all. Even now most top players can grind them pretty effectively, winning about 50% of the time, plus or minus 10 percent.

I think the best solution is actually to expand the game, creating more options for starting players. The limited options result in a single choice of grinding that lots of newbs just don't enjoy. With the addition of other gameplay styles, or challenges, or quests, or whatever, this could be improved ... but the game is still young!

Fallower

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Re: Why the game has to be so unrewarding? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12851.msg163283#msg163283
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2010, 01:57:14 am »
Quests give good rewards and motivations for new players, but they end too quickly, resulting in a huge boring grind for upgraded cards. If this grind could be tweaked just a little less, or with more interesting features such as quests to help you along, I think the game can be improved...

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Re: Why the game has to be so unrewarding? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12851.msg163418#msg163418
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2010, 08:12:30 am »
Aye, more quests are being designed. Either recurring (daily, weekly), or adding more to the 7 that are.
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Re: Why the game has to be so unrewarding? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12851.msg163506#msg163506
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2010, 02:55:50 pm »
Heh, I can't even imagine what a new quest would look like.
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kobisjeruk

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Re: Why the game has to be so unrewarding? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12851.msg163552#msg163552
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2010, 05:24:35 pm »
Aye, more quests are being designed. Either recurring (daily, weekly), or adding more to the 7 that are.
by zanz or the community? if by zanz, any source of confirmation? and maybe ETA?

Offline Rastafla

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Re: Why the game has to be so unrewarding? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12851.msg163560#msg163560
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2010, 05:59:43 pm »
Zanz have always said he will be making more quests and in theory you could say they are coming since he have them in his mind. ETAs doesn't exist though and probably never will. Stuff comes when its ready.
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Re: Why the game has to be so unrewarding? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=12851.msg163709#msg163709
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2010, 10:13:40 pm »
The OP is talking about starting out.  Without reading the forums, it was a very slow start for me.  I had trouble killing AI3s, much less FGs.

 

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