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Offline furballdn

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527289#msg527289
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2012, 06:54:15 am »
Shut up and take my 61 62 rep!

What do these findings show?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 07:01:05 am by furballdn »

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527296#msg527296
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2012, 07:09:09 am »
Wow. Very nice work, Wizy.

For those who think <5 attack creatures are worthless, note that having more, low-cost creatures means you are more resistant to single-target CC.
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Offline DigitalHero07Topic starter

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527405#msg527405
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2012, 06:03:34 pm »
I'm still a little confused about what does these simulations conclude. First of all I recognized that decks with lower QI (Quanta Index) have better results (according to Wizy). For example:

Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 8pm


It's QI is 2.53 (considering that pillars and the mark produce 5 quanta), but, theoretically, a 5-QI deck is better. Why isn't the following deck (QI = 4.86) a better choice?

Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 8pm

In addition, the Abomination Deck has a lower TTW than the Emerald Dragon Deck, but, theoretically, middle-ranged attackers are better in rush decks.

Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bs 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 5bt 8pn

TTW = 8.2

Spoiler for Hidden:
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4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4vc 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 4ve 8pj

TTW = 8.6

In my opinion, the ''mistake'' is probably in the QI of the decks used to tests. I'm not saying that THERE IS a mistake, I'm just a little confused xD
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527411#msg527411
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2012, 06:10:07 pm »
I'm still a little confused about what does these simulations conclude. First of all I recognized that decks with lower QI (Quanta Index) have better results (according to Wizy). For example:

Spoiler for Hidden:
Hover over cards for details, click for permalink
Deck import code : [Select]
58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58o 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 58q 8pm


It's QI is 2.53 (considering that pillars and the mark produce 5 quanta), but, theoretically, a 5-QI deck is better. Why isn't the following deck (QI = 4.86) a better choice?

Please, do not quote this entire post.
One type of creature+pillars vs a deck of 30 pillars. At least 20,000 simulations were done per deck.
How did you determine how many of each creature to use?
Doing 1,000 simulations with each possible combination (except the ones that are obviously inefficient)
If the 2 best combinations are too close to each other, then I do 10,000 for each.
Too much free time.

Aka: This can be seen to refute current QI assumptions.
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Offline DigitalHero07Topic starter

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527416#msg527416
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 06:27:12 pm »
It seems strange... Since I can't use 12 hematite golems in my deck, how can I test it? In addition, what does aka means?
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Offline Chapuz

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527417#msg527417
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 06:29:16 pm »
It seems strange... Since I can't use 12 hematite golems in my deck, how can I test it? In addition, what does aka means?
test in Xeno's game simulator (automatic AI vs AI games), and aka means "as known as"
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Offline Drake_XIV

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527418#msg527418
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2012, 06:30:25 pm »
It seems strange... Since I can't use 12 hematite golems in my deck, how can I test it? In addition, what does aka means?

Can't really test it, since it's hypothetical?

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Offline Wizy

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527443#msg527443
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2012, 07:38:21 pm »
A big part of the optimal QI is the number of turns you expect to play.
In these tests the opponent is defenseless, against a real opponent you should expect shields/healing/CC most of the time, thus the game will last longer.
When a game lasts longer, the pillars will produce more quanta.

The deck formed of pillars and golems kills a defenseless 100hp opponent in 7/8/9 turns. On average, each played pillar will only produce a total of about 5 quanta. In this case 18 pillars and 12 golems is the optimal.
However, if we set the opponent's hp to 200 to make it more close to an opponent with defenses, the games will last 11/12/13 turns, the pillars will produce more and so the optimal QI is now higher. In this case something more like 14 pillars and 16 golems would be better.

Quote from: DigitalHero07
In addition, the Abomination Deck has a lower TTW than the Emerald Dragon Deck, but, theoretically, middle-ranged attackers are better in rush decks.
The reason middle hitters are generally better is due to single-target CC wich is quite common.
If this game were only about pillars and creatures without abilities, the dragons would be the top choice.

Of course the decks are hypothetical, you cannot put 20 frogs in a deck. :/
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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527445#msg527445
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2012, 07:41:37 pm »
It seems strange... Since I can't use 12 hematite golems in my deck, how can I test it? In addition, what does aka means?
I use the Trainer set AI deck function when I want to test a deck with a 7th copy of a card.
This is not as efficient as Xeno's tool.
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Offline DigitalHero07Topic starter

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Re: An odd question about the way to make decks https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42091.msg527457#msg527457
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2012, 08:27:25 pm »
Spoiler for Hidden:
A big part of the optimal QI is the number of turns you expect to play.
In these tests the opponent is defenseless, against a real opponent you should expect shields/healing/CC most of the time, thus the game will last longer.
When a game lasts longer, the pillars will produce more quanta.

The deck formed of pillars and golems kills a defenseless 100hp opponent in 7/8/9 turns. On average, each played pillar will only produce a total of about 5 quanta. In this case 18 pillars and 12 golems is the optimal.
However, if we set the opponent's hp to 200 to make it more close to an opponent with defenses, the games will last 11/12/13 turns, the pillars will produce more and so the optimal QI is now higher. In this case something more like 14 pillars and 16 golems would be better.

Quote from: DigitalHero07
In addition, the Abomination Deck has a lower TTW than the Emerald Dragon Deck, but, theoretically, middle-ranged attackers are better in rush decks.
The reason middle hitters are generally better is due to single-target CC wich is quite common.
If this game were only about pillars and creatures without abilities, the dragons would be the top choice.

Of course the decks are hypothetical, you cannot put 20 frogs in a deck. :/
Explained a lot :o Thanks :D

EDIT:
Spoiler for Hidden:
It seems strange... Since I can't use 12 hematite golems in my deck, how can I test it? In addition, what does aka means?
I use the Trainer set AI deck function when I want to test a deck with a 7th copy of a card.
This is not as efficient as Xeno's tool.
Helped too, thanks :D
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 08:30:21 pm by DigitalHero07 »
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We're just ordinary people driven to revenge in the name of justice. But if revenge is called justice, then that justice breeds yet more revenge, and becomes a chain of hatred.
Sacrifice and hate are born out of love, and we are able to know pain.

 

anything
blarg: