What the game mechanics should be

[Delreich]

Also, point of inquiry: what happens to immaterial creatures when they hit a Fire Shield?

In addition to what J said: if you're asking what should happen, presumably the same as when a plague hits.

There is absolutely no logical reason why Rain of Fire should be the ONLY card/ability/spell that hits immaterial creatures when NOTHING else hits them.

I don't think anyone has argued for RoF to be the only card to hit, RoF is just the most obvious/popular AoE spell. Plague and Thunderstorm should presumably be considered the same.


In my opinion, the only thing that needs to be changed as far as the Immaterial status goes is the wording. Make it something along the lines of "is immune to worldly effects".
If it just prevents targeting, spells that don't (obviously) target will cause confusion as it is now, and probably even if the mechanics is changed.

On the other issues:
Bone walls stacking makes sense but will require some rebalancing.
Poison should be reflected. Miracle shouldn't, as you (the caster) are "inside" the shield. Should probably be extended to the point where no spell cast by you is reflected by your shield.
Cancelling an ability should make it as if you hadn't used it. It's not an issue of stupidity, it's usability.
Having all abilities available to mutants would make balancing impossible.

[Delreich]

Make it something along the lines of "is immune to worldly effects".

To me that's even more ambiguous than what we have now.

Hence the "along the lines". I'm aware it's not quite good enough, but I don't know how else to put it. I'm also trying to keep an opening for a counter measure (not that it's really needed now, but it might be later).

[Demongod]

Stacking bonewalls: yes.  Why not?  This way, if you punch through all of them, you punched through not one, but two cards.
Firestorm hitting immaterial: ever played warcraft 3?  Know what ethereal is?  Can't be hit by physical stuff.  But magic?  Ouch.
Reflecting poison: Yes, very much so.  I have no idea why poison doesn't target.  Shouldn't reflect miracle though.  That'd be dumb.

Canceling critter ability: absolutely.  This is just dumb that you lose the quanta and the ability.  It's bad coding, bad implementation, and makes the whole game look like some moron put it together because he could, rather than someone trying to make a polished product.

All abilities on mutants: yes.  Think about this.  If you mutate into a massive dragon with devour, that's far stronger than sniper.  As for queen, consider two boneyards active and an otyugh eating a mutant.  Not imba.

[jmizzle7]

An example of a pure real-time card game is "Speed". You know, with the common 52 card poker deck? Look it up if you don't know about it. It's fun and crazy, and very much real-time.

[jmizzle7]

I suck at Speed. lol

My ex-girlfriend loved to play me because it was one of the only things that she totally destroyed me in. 

[jmizzle7]

I think that Cipher_Nemo has been trying to say two things. 1.) Both Elements and MtG are turn based, and 2.) Elements refreshes for each player on a turn-by-turn basis, while MtGO refreshes on a card-by-card basis. I think the argument was caused only by a breakdown in communication, but either way, the entire point is moot and off-topic entirely.

[jmizzle7]

I wasn't hostile. In order to avoid ruining the thread, I will leave it at that.

[jmizzle7]

Well, the problem with Immaterial creatures right now is that there is no answer to them other than a shield or a faster damage race. Immaterial creatures are immune to damage, infection, stasis (Procrastination), and targeted spells/abilities. I would like to see new cards like a pure board sweeping effect that kills all creatures or something instead of a "fix" to the current Immaterial status immunities.

[jmizzle7]

And, why are we talking about turn-baseness when we have Bonewall Stackings, Spell Reflection and such crap to talk about?

I don't know. Why are you talking about turn-baseness? Nobody forced you to join that part of this discussion.

SG, Bobcamel was saying that this long, pointless argument over "real-time" vs. "turn-based" is far off-topic, and was only started because of a simple choice of words by Cipher-Nemo.

That was back in July. I hope we get the real-time PvP in the update before the end of this year!

The entire argument was over what Zanzarino meant by "real time", and transformed into a larger argument on the difference between "real time" and "turn-based" CCGs. The former is just semnantics, while the latter is just moot. If necessary, make a thread about it.

I will paraphrase Chriskang in his OP and say please stay on topic.

[jmizzle7]

Well, the problem with Immaterial creatures right now is that there is no answer to them other than a shield or a faster damage race. Immaterial creatures are immune to damage, infection, stasis (Procrastination), and targeted spells/abilities. I would like to see new cards like a pure board sweeping effect that kills all creatures or something instead of a "fix" to the current Immaterial status immunities.

Why are immaterial creatures a problem?

I've seen a lot of new players always complain about immaterial creatures but that is because they come from MtG and don't yet understand that having immaterial creatures is not an automatic win. If immaterial creatures were overpowered, everyone would have either them or Anubis. Right now that is not the case.

There's no answer to a weapon with Protect Artifact either (not even Sundial stops that) which is basically the same as having an immaterial creatures, but I don't see people complaining about that. If we get something that counters immaterial creatures, do we also get something that counters Protect Artifact?

Yes, immaterial creatures are immune to everything but that's the whole point!

I didn't mean that there was something wrong with immaterial creatures. I never said that they were overpowered, either. Obviously they aren't, or everybody would play mono-Aether. I am just saying the only way to deal with them currently is to outrace them or to slap a shield down to block their damage. You missed my point entirely. If you must know how I voted, then here.

• Reflective Shield should NOT reflect poison - Poison doesn't target. It says "Inflicts 3 poison damages at the end of every turn. Poison damage is cumulative". Just like the text of Miracle, it doesn't allow you to choose a target, and doesn't (and shouldn't) take into account what shield your opponent has equipped. Compare this to Holy Flash, which actually has a target, and is affected by reflect: "Heal the target for up to 5 HP's. If the target's element is death or darkness, damage is dealt instead." This is how the reflect system works and shouldn't be changed.
• Untargeted/AoE spells (like Rain of Fire) should NOT hit immaterial creatures - This is at the heart of what I was saying before. My entire point was that the existing cards and mechanics only allow for one solution to immaterial creatures: outrace them. I really don't have a problem with this at all, but if some sort of removal is called for, I think a true board sweeping effect that kills all creatures would suffice, immaterial or not.
• Bone Walls should NOT stack - I guess it makes sense to stack them, but it's really not necessary. The utility of this small change would be marginal at best, as it's generally a good idea to let your Wall run down anyway before replacing it. I don't think a change this lackluster is worth the effort.
• Canceling a creature's skill should give you quanta back - Duh.
• Some abilities should NOT be available to mutants (like Sniper, Queen, ...) - I think the mutation mechanic is quite balanced already. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I say:

-When you try to make sense and insist magic should hit, this removes the point, as then Drainlifes and Firebolts and so should affect immaterials.
-Rain of Fire is just firing a Fire Bolt at every enemy, compressing up to 23 cards into one at the cost of lack of damage rampup.
-Except for the ones you can't target with the single Fire Bolt.
-Plague is a spam of Infections.

On the other side:

-If RoF hit Immortals, it'd be a cheap roast. This shouldn't be possible, as Immortals would roll even lower in the metagame or so, for the card that counters them has about 2 copies of itself in any worthwhile Raynebow deck.

Well, I can say that creatures with immaterial status will most likely never lose the immunity to spell targeting. If they did, then we would see the old Phase Dragon + Parallel Universe combo that Zanzarino effectively eliminated when he made Phase Dragon immaterial.

[jmizzle7]

I didn't mean that there was something wrong with immaterial creatures.

Well you said there was a "problem" with immaterial creatures and you would like to see a card that does a "pure board sweeping effect that kills all creatures", including immaterial.

That's what I was replying to. However my reply was also directed to other people on this thread and everyone who voted that RoF should hit immaterial creatures.

You know what I meant. So I said "problem" when I probably should have said "issue". Sue me. As for the board sweeper, it's just a suggestion to offer another option to deal with untargetable creatures. Besides, we need new cards anyway.

[jmizzle7]

That's the exact card I was alluding to.