What is the Game Turning Into?

[TheIdioticIdiot]

Let's face it, no games are perfect... Elements isn't either... It's my favorite free Internet game atm, but here is a reason to hate it.

Older, rich players want all cards to be balanced based purely on PvP, which is logical
Newer, poor players want to keep cards such as SoG and fractal un-nerfed, so they can farm FGs to get rich

I belong in the rich group, but I do empathize new players.
If you think about it, if all cards are to be balanced based purely on PvP, beginner FG decks are  ???, which will mean the game will get less players, as less new players join and stick around, and more old veterans eventually "retire". Which means there wouldn't be any PvP left to be balanced.
While I agree PvP is what the game should be focused on, the game design is flawed in that it needs to compensate for PvE, so I guess the point of this topic is that people should stop yelling "nerf SoG" all the time, I personally agree it's quite a strong card, but rather than focusing on balancing PvP, we should focus on maintaining PvP.

[RootRanger]

PvP balancing takes priority. If there are no good FG-killing decks or FG-farming becomes more difficult, then zanz can weaken FGs (give them worse strategies, AI, card combos, etc.) However, zanz cannot control what is used in PvP. People will always make the best decks they can. If a card is OP then too many decks will be too similar.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

PvP balancing takes priority. If there are no good FG-killing decks or FG-farming becomes more difficult, then zanz can weaken FGs (give them worse strategies, AI, card combos, etc.) However, zanz cannot control what is used in PvP. People will always make the best decks they can. If a card is OP then too many decks will be too similar.

I agree, but if you look at PvP, what do we see?
BL for example, nova graboid bow everywhere...
CL? SN bows, PSN bows, cremate rushes...
so, why are we so intent on nerfing things like SoGs, when we should nerf graboids, SN, and so on?
Like I said, I agree that the game should be balanced based on PvP, but do we really have a PvP if we don't have the "P" part of it? I have seen a ton of people quitting the instant they found out that each upgrade costs 1500 , and I have seen ppl who stick around and farmed up beginner FG decks, and those FG decks depend on SoG, fractal, and such cards we want nerfed because it's "OP" in PvP, when SN rushes and cremate rushes are the most used?

[Celidion]

Why nerf SoG at all? All PvP events are primarily unupgraded, and the ones that are upp'd ban SoG as it makes games too long.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

Why nerf SoG at all? All PvP events are primarily unupgraded, and the ones that are upp'd ban SoG as it makes games too long.

that too, I barely ever use SoGs in PvP...

[RootRanger]

As for farming, I'm sure zanz is doing what he can to optimize the amount of players. Keep in mind that farming allows old players to stick around as they try to build more upgraded decks. Many players would quit without the high upgrade cost.

PvP balancing? I think it's pretty good. I know the unupped game pretty well, and there are ways around a graboid bow that do not severely hinder your performance against other decks. While I think the graboid could use a nerf, it does not make PvP boring. My signature rainbow only has one grabiod and it slays graboid earth bows all the time. As for upped play, I'm sure there is a balanced metagame. In upped you have very cheap CC light thunderbolts and rewinds that can slow down your enemy's rush while your own attackers damage them. Stalls are pretty scary with SoGs and a strong shield, but they can be beaten by the right deck.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

As for farming, I'm sure zanz is doing what he can to optimize the amount of players. Keep in mind that farming allows old players to stick around as they try to build more upgraded decks. Many players would quit without the high upgrade cost.

PvP balancing? I think it's pretty good. I know the unupped game pretty well, and there are ways around a graboid bow that do not severely hinder your performance against other decks. While I think the graboid could use a nerf, it does not make PvP boring. My signature rainbow only has one grabiod and it slays graboid earth bows all the time. As for upped play, I'm sure there is a balanced metagame. In upped you have very cheap CC light thunderbolts and rewinds that can slow down your enemy's rush while your own attackers damage them. Stalls are pretty scary with SoGs and a strong shield, but they can be beaten by the right deck.

so... you are agreeing with me
PvP is balanced, yet we are still trying to nerf SoG...

[RootRanger]

While there are ways around SoG, there are valid points to nerf it. Just because a card can be beaten doesn't mean it is overpowered. The old sundial did nothing against poinson rush, but it was still nerfed. Do I think the SoG is overpowered? Perhaps, but I would need to play more with and against it to have a better idea of it.

The metagame is viable, but some cards are still strong.

[OldTrees]

First obvious detail is the card bank is increasing and being fine tuned with the passage of time.

Balance:
This means that at the current rate (rate determines quality of balancing and creativity) we end up with a very well regulated game even without all the cards being balanced to the standard.

Deck variety:
Obviously only the best of the best decks will be competing in competitive PvP. As the card bank grows the equilibrium number of decks will increase ever so slightly. Additionally the card changes will help adjust when a card is unsed or a strategy becomes dominant or non-competitively advantageous.

Game Length:
As the game grows older the time it takes per individual (regardless of gamer type) will grow (although slower than the game ages probably)

Rarity:
Adding rare cards every once in a while artificially increases the game time for collectors (those that desire long game time) while barely affecting non collectors. This is a mechanism that if T500 works will be useful to regulate the number of rare cards to the distribution between collectors and non-collectors. Combined with the commonness of every card in the trainer, we should see a increasing demand for the game into the future at least until the card bank reaches a size at which the additions are not significant enough.

Note: This analysis does not count non game reasons for leaving the game and or forum.

[BluePriest]

In an attempt to steer this away from an SoG thread (well, a debate about buffing.nerfing SoG) I will say this. One of the main reasons i do not participate in pvp in the forums are the restrictions. It is becoming like yugioh. Forbidden cards arent good for a game. If I was in Zanz's shoes, Id almost be insulted that a card that I made is almost always banned. I would probably NOT give out awards if in regular pvp tournies cards were banned. I would never join a tournament in Super smash bros Brawl where metaknight (considered to be so powerful, he has his own tier) was banned. I think it should be up to the player to learn the opponent, know the playstyles, and build a deck accordingly. I think the biggest thing hold the game back is the community. Not the cards. The community is making its own rules that dont exist, and asserting them as fact. When these "rules" are broken, then people make a big deal about it, however, they arent really rules, and are probably just part of a theme, and in reality, not the whole picture.

Whoever side life is suppose to be about healing? Why not creature swarm? Poison fits life perfectly as well. Ever seen The Last Airbender? Fire is actually not all about deah and destruction, its also about life. I could go on, but I feel I am rambling.

One more note, when talking about sanctuary

Yes, but if a mono-light deck has multiples of this card, it is now impossible for a mono-darkness deck to beat it.

This is what i am talking about. Aside from war, where does it really matter what element can beat what? And guess what, Elements doesnt just revolve around this forum and its events... People need to remember that.

[teffy]

I think there are good reasons, why cards should be balanced based on PvP:
- The most democratic way to decide , which cards work good, and which not. Although cards have a popularity, because of art, name , coolness of the effect and so on.
- Players always try to play with intellegence (if they want to win), the AI can´t.
- The greatest variety of decks we have, atm.

@tournaments
I personally don´t play them, because they limit my time, and regular weekly tournaments have the "wrong" time.
Special rules are ok for tournaments, it´s part of card games, that you "play with the rules", (what happens, if we hadn´t card X...)

A negative development of this is, that it becomes harder to find opponents just for a few PvP Duels game and then talk about the game. In the beginning of forums and chat, this was quite easy.
I see that the chat is "PVP- Event focused".

Another possible negative development is: Players could make "nerf /buff card " decisions because of PvP events with special rules.

@ BluePriest
Life has "swarm cards". The skill of FFQ is  . Mitosis is a new "swarm card".

I know Avatar, the last Airbender, one of the reasons I play this game, I know all 3 books.
The other side of Fire is completely neglected in Elements, Fire also means warmth and life.
But I don´t know good card ideas for this. Without card ideas, no warmth with fire.

[jmizzle7]

In an attempt to steer this away from an SoG thread (well, a debate about buffing.nerfing SoG) I will say this. One of the main reasons i do not participate in pvp in the forums are the restrictions. It is becoming like yugioh. Forbidden cards arent good for a game. If I was in Zanz's shoes, Id almost be insulted that a card that I made is almost always banned. I would probably NOT give out awards if in regular pvp tournies cards were banned. I would never join a tournament in Super smash bros Brawl where metaknight (considered to be so powerful, he has his own tier) was banned. I think it should be up to the player to learn the opponent, know the playstyles, and build a deck accordingly. I think the biggest thing hold the game back is the community. Not the cards. The community is making its own rules that dont exist, and asserting them as fact. When these "rules" are broken, then people make a big deal about it, however, they arent really rules, and are probably just part of a theme, and in reality, not the whole picture.

Whoever side life is suppose to be about healing? Why not creature swarm? Poison fits life perfectly as well. Ever seen The Last Airbender? Fire is actually not all about deah and destruction, its also about life. I could go on, but I feel I am rambling.

One more note, when talking about sanctuary

Yes, but if a mono-light deck has multiples of this card, it is now impossible for a mono-darkness deck to beat it.

This is what i am talking about. Aside from war, where does it really matter what element can beat what? And guess what, Elements doesnt just revolve around this forum and its events... People need to remember that.

I agree that the community has imposed a set of "rules" on competitive play, card design, and tournament structure that could potentially hinder creativity in the long run. I won't go into details, but there have been tournaments whose rules were quite contrived as to dictate the deck builds to the point that it turned into an RPS game. I miss the days of simple rules. If anything, PvP Limited should be about restricting card use (e.g. "four card max instead of six") instead of eliminating specific cards or sets of cards from the available pool. I have several other issues regarding PvP, but they shall be discussed elsewhere.

I love our community's involvement in the card design realm, as it has shown to be a great inspiration to Zanz's creative genius and impetus. However, I am concerned about how some aspects of card design have turned into a science and less of a creative design process. While it is definitely possible to assess a card's balance potential based on hard statistics of actual cards in the game, designing potential cards requires innovation, something that cannot be measured by quantum cost or base creature stats. Status quo should never be the goal with a potential card idea. I would encourage all card idea enthusiasts to jump out of their own comfort zone, take a deep breath, and work on designing cards that don't fit any mold, formula, or archetype. Take an Elements environmental scan of sorts, and design cards that fill needs and offer layers of utility. Remember, complexity doesn't have to be complicated - sometimes less is more.

About card balance... PvP is the ultimate measuring stick because it is the most versatile, dynamic form of play. PvE is quite static, as opponents use predictable decks with predictable playing techniques. The measure to which a card is balanced in Elements is not whether or not it is too powerful (or not powerful enough), but whether or not it is a viable candidate in a competitive deck, either as a key player, an enabler, or as a synergy. If this question is examined with the correct scrutiny, every card that comes out of development should be at an appropriate "power level."