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Offline deidmannTopic starter

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Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027375#msg1027375
« on: January 01, 2013, 05:56:09 pm »
If you wanted to put each element in a seperate tier based on their cardpool and usefulness, what tier would each element belong to?
The tiers would be Demigod, Warrior and Peon (Necessary, solid, and impractical respectively).

Offline Higurashi

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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027422#msg1027422
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2013, 08:45:37 pm »
The list has been the same for most of Elemints' lifetime. The top four are pretty darn dominant: :aether, :fire, :death and :entropy do not lack speed and have unparalleled versatility, especially when it comes to doing damage. That has shown to be the prime factor for winning the largest amount of games in a mono/duo environment. Their control and defences (indirect through CC or direct through shields) are also very strong. They can respond to any threat, really.

The mid-tier is the biggest one, of course. Next comes the elements that have some control, stamina and/or speed, but lack ways to do either of these three fast or efficiently: :darkness, :earth, :air, :time, :light

Last come the elements that have ineffective control, speed or fall victim to defences because of their one-dimensional effective offence (meaning they may have ways to do different kinds of damage, but those ways aren't very effective or fast): :water, :life and :gravity
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 08:49:09 pm by Higurashi »
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Offline deidmannTopic starter

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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027429#msg1027429
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2013, 09:07:07 pm »
Haha, great answer. With some alterations, I have my own personal opinion for the elements' tiers.
Please refer to my earliest posts, cause I'm trying to keep my daytime as strict as possible.
 

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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027453#msg1027453
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2013, 10:32:05 pm »
 :aether has no PC, how does this makes it effective to every aspect?
 :fire can do many things, but not everything at once. Also, its creatures are glass cannon; easily CCed.
 :entropy has good cards, but its randomness and its bad hitters slow it down.
 :death has no PC, like Aether.

On the other hand;
 :life has Adrenafrogs; why Adrenafrogs should be jealous of other pure rushes?
 :water has the cheapest CC in the game and it is available via plenty of different cards. Furthermore, Nymph's Tears give you ultra-rare creatures.
 :gravity has Momentum, Black Hole and CataTitans.

Overall, elements are pretty balanced. There are poorly balanced cards within them, but if we take every possible mono-duo-trio-rainbow strategy into account, we will see there is not any element overall superior or inferior in comparison with the rest of them.
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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027523#msg1027523
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2013, 03:02:43 am »
Should tiers exist between individual elements? An element itself seems too broad a category to be put into tiers, especially if one wanted a well balanced game. Even so, it should be the player which decides how strong his/her deck is. Of course, I haven't been around for a while, so I can't really say much.

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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027532#msg1027532
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2013, 03:53:40 am »
I recall a thread i made looking like this. The general consensus is that Fire and Entropy at top spot, and Water and Gravity at the bottom.
Can someone link that thread here?
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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027536#msg1027536
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2013, 04:14:30 am »
Should tiers exist between individual elements? An element itself seems too broad a category to be put into tiers, especially if one wanted a well balanced game. Even so, it should be the player which decides how strong his/her deck is. Of course, I haven't been around for a while, so I can't really say much.

Not really.  These are only current assumptions about the elements at the moment.  As time goes on, these will probably shift, but it may not shift much.  Prime example as to why these exist can actually be found in the creatures:  Fire, Earth, and Gravity are all related in how they are placed: Fire has fast and powerful creatures, hard to react to; Earth has average speed and average attacks, but this allows them to have decent HP; Gravity lacks true offense, relying on mostly synergies that are easily tampered with.
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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027539#msg1027539
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2013, 04:48:46 am »
:aether has no PC, how does this makes it effective to every aspect?
 :fire can do many things, but not everything at once. Also, its creatures are glass cannon; easily CCed.
 :entropy has good cards, but its randomness and its bad hitters slow it down.
 :death has no PC, like Aether.

On the other hand;
 :life has Adrenafrogs; why Adrenafrogs should be jealous of other pure rushes?
 :water has the cheapest CC in the game and it is available via plenty of different cards. Furthermore, Nymph's Tears give you ultra-rare creatures.
 :gravity has Momentum, Black Hole and CataTitans.

Overall, elements are pretty balanced. There are poorly balanced cards within them, but if we take every possible mono-duo-trio-rainbow strategy into account, we will see there is not any element overall superior or inferior in comparison with the rest of them.
:aether Fractal is mainly what gives Aether offensive versatility. Thanks to it, you open up options like Psiontal, Chargertal and Devtal (i.e. other ways to do damage or prevent defences). Furthermore its CC lends itself to Death duos, which means Poison, and its synergy with Fire is great as well, lending itself to Deflag. Same goes for its affinity with Darkness. Because it can gain so much from so many elements, it has no problem responding to most threats. This is why it's often called the element of duality, synergy or comboing. It is also the main reason the weaker elements have such a very hard time clawing their way up; you -need- a reliable response to Dimensional Shield that doesn't fail to other common decks. See War 4 for more on this, also christened the War of Fractal Dragons and Dims.
:fire Of course not. My main point was versatility of damage, which Fire is the best at. With Phoenix, Golem, Immo and Crimson Dragon it has a tough creature, a grower to beat stalls, speed through Immo and the hardest hitting dragon in the game which helps breaking stalls and domination decks as well. Fire Bolt and Fahren wrap it up by giving it more ways to do damage and the strongest damage spell in the game. Nothing glass cannon-y about it, really x)
:entropy You don't see much randomness in competitive Entropy decks. Discord and Pande almost always work as they should, and Pande does, on average, 3.2 damage to creatures. More than RoF. Its true strength is in mixing with other elements, of course, because Discord is always there as quanta control for duos and Nova is always there for making use of cards that other elements would not be able to.
:death Doesn't need PC, like Aether. Has Poison, amazing stalling and duos that don't need it much. If it does, there's very strong synergy with Darkness.

:life It's not. Life is fast. Sadly, that's it. Its fast offence is very fragile and pathetically weak against shields (Adrenafrogs), its stallbreaking is very vulnerable (Mitosis), it can't stall as well as most due to lack of CC and reliable defence, and it has no way of doing other kinds of damage. Because it lacks so many essential things, it has to borrow from other elements, but it has to choose what to borrow. Can't have it all in a duo. Thus, it will always lack something. Compare with Fire, that only lacks heavy quanta control and healing. Fire can choose what to complement when mixing in other elements.
:water ...yeah, nothing contradicting my point here. Water has CC alright. As you can see I list speed, control or versatile offence. Lacking in either puts them in the low tier because they have nothing to compensate for it (such as stamina for stalling, as seen in Earth and Light). Nymphs buffs helped Water's stall/domination-breaking abilities though.
:gravity ...yep, sure does. Sadly the only really good card in most environments is Titan, and basing decks around it means a combo deck. Gravity has extreme weaknesses to things like RT and rushes, because it has no control, no stalling ability and no speed. It can break stalls with Titans and, to a lesser extent, Acc+Dragon, but stalls can break the combo much easier than something like Devtal, TU Dragons, Fractal Dragons or Fire Bolts in your face. I've yet to meet anyone with PvP experience that doesn't pity unupped Gravity for how sadly weak it is. It's generally accepted to be the weakest of all.

Elements aren't balanced at all. Most of all there's a LOT of imbalance when elements battle unupgraded. All of the aforementioned is based on experience from War, PvP Events and Tournaments. The results from these events are readily available for studying, in case you haven't participated much in organized PvP. It's a very interesting and lengthy read/study, spanning over two years now. Especially War is neatly organized and entertaining for your reading pleasure, as well as carrying heavy focus on duo decks.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 04:55:06 am by Higurashi »
:aether  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/guilds/991-thunderbolts-ho!-991/ :aether
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Offline mesaprotector

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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027552#msg1027552
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2013, 05:35:24 am »
:gravity ...yep, sure does. Sadly the only really good card in most environments is Titan, and basing decks around it means a combo deck. Gravity has extreme weaknesses to things like RT and rushes, because it has no control, no stalling ability and no speed. It can break stalls with Titans and, to a lesser extent, Acc+Dragon, but stalls can break the combo much easier than something like Devtal, TU Dragons, Fractal Dragons or Fire Bolts in your face. I've yet to meet anyone with PvP experience that doesn't pity unupped Gravity for how sadly weak it is. It's generally accepted to be the weakest of all.

:gravity: is admittedly pretty terrible unupped, but upped it's actually quite competitive. Whether this is a result of the current meta (BH → most rainbows, and rainbows are everywhere), or the added rushing power with the much better upped charger (and even Overdrive and Graviton Guard), upped mono-gravity is capable of grinding silver quite competently, and is the most consistent of all mono rushes against AI3. Throwing in a few Elite Otys works wonders for CC. So it's in the middle tier upped. But unupped, yeah, it sucks.
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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027591#msg1027591
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2013, 08:44:41 am »
Higs, you tell how powerful Fractal it is and how good Chargetal or Devtal is. Pardon, but Chargers are :gravity and Devonians are :time creatures, so Fractal's success in those cases are because of a :gravity and a :time card. Furthermore, Chargers and Devonians are capable to be played by their own, while Fractal needs to target something playable. So, imho, creatures > fractal because they don't need an extra card to be played, while the same can't be said for Fractal. You focus on the tree (Fractal) and lose the forest (creatures fractaled) which makes Fractal seeming OP, which is not. Btw, Psiontals are quite a slow and not very reliable deck imo.

All spells, either buffing (Adrenaline, Blessing) or CCing (Freeze, Thunderbolt) need a creature to target. Because of this, despite their powerfulness, buffs & CCs are less reliable than the creatures themselves.
PC spells & abilities are also unreliable because a hostile permanent is needed to be targeted and destroyed/stolen in order to be effective (though a pillar sometimes may worth the PC casted upon it).
The most reliable spell in the whole game is Nymph's Tears, because you are always going to have a Pillar/Pendulum to turn into a Nymph, though some Nymph's ability may not be always playable. Second most reliable spells are CC which can target creatures as well as opponents (because you can almost always damage your opponent even if not a creature is around). Third most reliable spells are healing spells because you're always going to take some damage and you're always going to need some healing, though careful deck balancing is also needed here.
Overall, Creatures are the most reliable cards of ETG, because they can function just by themselves. :life has a great advantage for having some of the most cost-effective creatures in the game. :water and :gravity has also good CC creatures (Squids, Otyughs), though the last are much better upped.

Btw, judging an element's balance based on War and PvP is wrong because these events are unbalanced in the first place. Forcing each team to always include a certain amount of in-element cards and some off-elements cards is not balancing at all. Some elements are best in monos, some in duos, some in rainbows etc. Furthermore, for example, team :life is not going to take any praise for every Adrenaline or Mitosis or Bonds were used from hostile teams, same for every time Flying weapon is used (no praise for team :air) or Antimatter (no praising team :entropy).

As for the results, in my most honest opinion, they mean NOTHING in a game that is so much RNG-based or luck-based (with 'luck', I am reffering to guessing correctly your opponent's deck and building your deck correctly to counter it, which is pure luck in the end of the day).
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 08:46:12 am by ARTHANASIOS »
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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027649#msg1027649
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2013, 03:26:15 pm »
Admittedly, Fractal is OP, but fact is it's an Aether card. You're talking about duos and rainbows, so obviously I have to as well. The tier list isn't about monos. Devs are Devourers, btw. Devonians can't prevent the setup of defence. Psiontal isn't slow at all x) See the last War for some of that kickass-ness.

Balancing after PvP is not wrong at all. It is, in fact, how this game is balanced and how every theorycrafter on the forum judges card balance. The other option would be to balance after PvE, but this game isn't focused on that. Because the AI is flawed and has advantages and disadvantages it wouldn't be a reliable or consistent way to balance. Furthermore, a tier list is only really useful or interesting for PvP, and has only ever historically been constructed for PvP.

War is chiefly mono, duo and rainbow environment. Because you can actually pack anything in your vault at the start of it, the restrictions do not matter at all at first. It is later that the versatility and strengths of an element are tested because the cards available diminish. Though it might seem tempting to you to compare elements at a PvP League state (use any cards at any time), the real test of an element's survivability is when restrictions enter.

But sure, we can compare them at a League state too. Or a barely restricted Tournament. Do some reading and you'll see there as well that there are obvious dominant elements. When rainbows are allowed, they naturally soar to the top as well.

@mesa: Yes, upped Gravy is a different beast. With Elite Oty, Charger, Guard and OD, it gains a LOT of speed and control. BH is, of course, very useful in Arena, and there's always Dishole for PvP. Every element has strong tools, but in the long run it's a test of versatility and how well an element functions when you start to remove card by card. That is how you break down and evaluate strength.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 03:30:47 pm by Higurashi »
:aether  http://elementscommunity.org/forum/guilds/991-thunderbolts-ho!-991/ :aether
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Re: Tiers https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=45553.msg1027655#msg1027655
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2013, 03:49:43 pm »
 No matter how you view it, judging elements as a whole is relative at best and a huge mistake at worse. :earth is not just Antlions; it is Graboid/Shriekers too. :gravity is not just Mercenaries; it is Black Hole too. Certain cards within an element are imbalanced but not the element as a whole. Restricted environment is wrong too, because elements don't have exact the same number of cards in the first place and, moreover, not every card is versatile enough to be used in every deck.
 Unrestricted enviroments are best to consider balancing imho.
Brawl #1 team :time, Brawl #2 team :fire, Brawl #3 team Silver Ferns, Brawl #4,7,8 Brawlmaster
War #8 team :life, War #10,11,12 team :light, Brawl #6 team FROGS :life

 

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