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Offline EssenceTopic starter

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The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15579#msg15579
« on: January 04, 2010, 06:18:17 pm »
One of the core concepts in CCG deckbuilding is the concept of the "mana curve", or in more generic terms, the setting up of a deck in a manner that maximally utilizes your existing resources every turn.  In 1996, Paul Sligh took a M:tG tournament by surprise with a simple-looking mono-Red deck using creatures that weren't necessarily the most impressive or efficient, but rather were arranged in a spread that was mathematically designed to use every point of mana available to the deck every turn, eliminating waste. 

Since that tournament, every CCG that relies on anything akin to M:tG's mana has had it's imitators, and the idea of the mana curve has buried itself deep in the CCG players' collective subconscious. As you've probably guessed, this concept has no place in Elements whatsoever.

The reason why is pretty simple: in Elements, you don't 'lose' any unspent quanta at the end of each turn.  That means that spending 5 quanta on turn 1 means not spending 10 quanta on turn 2.  The question in Elements is not how to optimize your quanta usage per turn, but how to optimize it per investment.  Let me explain.

It took me a long time when I first started playing and stumbled across mono-Aether (before I found the boards and learned what that meant) to realize that playing an Immortal now is stupid if you can wait 2 turns and play a Phase Dragon. I was literally making myself lose more by wasting quanta on an investment that wasn't going to return as much damage as quickly as my other investment option.  I think, unfortunately, that the Immortal/Phase Dragon is the only really clear-cut example, however, because they're the only creatures that can basically ignore your opponent's potential interference.

If there were no opponent interference in Elements, i.e. if it were just a race to 100 points of damage, just about the only creatures that would get played are growth-based creatures and Dragons.  That's because spending 3 quanta on an Elite Cockatrice is stupid when you could wait 4 turns and spend 12 Quanta on an Emerald Dragon.  Over the next 3 turns, the Dragon's damage output would catch up with and overtake the Cockatrice's easily.

But there is interference from the opponent, and that means that Dragons are risky -- putting 12 Quanta into any one thing is risky, because the opponent can usually find a way to get rid of any one thing.  The simple fact is, with 100 HP between you and a loss, in Elements, (unless you're playing a False God) you've got time to gain control if you're careful, no matter how blitzkrieg-y your opponent gets.  That means that even you fast-attack players have to carefully examine how much of your quanta your opponent can take away with a single card.

For example: Fire decks.  Fire seems like the all-around element, with permanent destruction, creature removal, direct damage, and massively-powerful attackers.  But it's creatures tend toward the pricey side, and they're all remarkably easy for your opponent to remove from the game, making Fire a risky quanta investment.  Most Fire player's games are lost when the opponent manages to (oddly enough) Firestorm at the right moment, or get out a Protected Eagle's Eye or Immaterial Otyugh.  Each Fire creature seems hugely powerful, but the fragility makes each Fire's investment of quanta into a high-risk portfolio.

On the other hand, investing in, say, non-Graboid Earth creatures has the opposite problem.  Unless your name is "Seism", you're just not going to pump out Golems and Antlions and Stone Dragons fast enough to keep up with your opponent's counterattack, no matter how reliable of an investment they are.

Essentially, in Elements, there is no "mana curve", but there is something similar -- the "risk curve".  How much of your Quanta are you willing to invest in high-risk, high-reward cards like Dragons versus low-risk, low-reward cards like Blue Crawlers?  Many of the popular PVP and t50 farming decks right now exemplify this "risk curve" by utilizing cards that are outliers on the risk/reward bell curve like Physalia (sure, it's easy to remove, but there's almost no investment, and since no one carries Purify, the reward grows with every passing turn) and Quintessence (removes almost all risk from a potentially high-risk creature, and requires so little investment that it's almost a no-brainer).  There is no "Sligh" deck capable of using underpowered creatures to surprising effect in Elements -- your job as a deckbuilder, then, is limited to identifying those hard-to-find low-risk/high reward cards and card combinations and exploiting them as best you can.
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Offline Avenger

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15582#msg15582
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 06:25:54 pm »
I think it is still important how much quanta can you squeeze out and how much of this quanta is spent usefully.
Especially, if you can ramp up quanta production faster in the beginning.
And i think you lose quantum, any unspent quantum is a loss, this is why you balance rainbow decks.
Also, the adrenaline card makes low level creatures useful in damage output.

Offline coinich

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15590#msg15590
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2010, 06:55:39 pm »
Writing quite the article series, huh?  I like it, sorry I don't have much to add.  There are very few cards in the game directly touching an opponent's quanta pool; Pest and Discord are the only things I can think of immediatly.  I made a false god in Chriskang's trainer based on the concept of quanta AND pillar denial, and I could never beat it.  It just locked you down too well.

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15593#msg15593
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2010, 07:07:36 pm »
This topic has too much MtG.

But it's nicely written and everything, so you can has congratulations and handshake.

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15601#msg15601
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2010, 07:33:54 pm »
Nice piece, Essence. We'll soon have a collection of articles if you keep this up.

Offline EssenceTopic starter

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15606#msg15606
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2010, 07:43:53 pm »
Thanks, Daxx.  I write articles for websites for a living, so it's kind of how I think. :p
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Offline jmizzle7

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15625#msg15625
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2010, 09:55:37 pm »
Yep, very well-written. I played MtG for a long time and had the same revelation you did, Essence. I went through six accounts trying things and figuring out the nuance of the game before I settled on jmizzle7. I was trying to build decks based on MtG logic, but found myself holding a vampire more often than not in order to play a dragon the next turn. I have tried to find the word to describe the kind of curve Elements has, but your "risk curve" seems to hit the nail on the head. :)

Offline Jangoo

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15638#msg15638
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2010, 11:01:32 pm »


Nice style Essence.

Even without the possibility of interfering opponents I dont really understand your mathematical logic behind all this.
In your example about an Aether-deck you say that it is (could?) be better to hold an Immortal to play a dragon later on.

Funny enough I just convinced myself last week when building an aether deck, that in a mono aether the dragons only have a place when you already have 6 immortals in the deck.
I was using an "investment" logic stating that an immo will yield me 5 dmg for 7 quanta and a dragon will yield 10 dmg for 14 quanta which is ... right, the same ratio.

So, if you do consider your quanta limited and thus have to apply such mercantile thinking, especially in this case it would never make sense to wait for the dragon. Even without the "risk-curve" that is.

Or am I missing something here?



Offline jmizzle7

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15640#msg15640
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2010, 11:22:46 pm »

Nice style Essence.

Even without the possibility of interfering opponents I dont really understand your mathematical logic behind all this.
In your example about an Aether-deck you say that it is (could?) be better to hold an Immortal to play a dragon later on.

Funny enough I just convinced myself last week when building an aether deck, that in a mono aether the dragons only have a place when you already have 6 immortals in the deck.
I was using an "investment" logic stating that an immo will yield me 5 dmg for 7 quanta and a dragon will yield 10 dmg for 14 quanta which is ... right, the same ratio.

So, if you do consider your quanta limited and thus have to apply such mercantile thinking, especially in this case it would never make sense to wait for the dragon. Even without the "risk-curve" that is.

Or am I missing something here?
That isn't an exception to the logic Essence has presented. Elite Immortal and Elite Phase Dragon, as you said, have the same damage/quanta ratio. The only risk involved in this equation applies to Phase Dragon's vulnerability to Gravity Shield. Essence already stated why Immaterial status is the exception to the risk curve, so this example is consistent with his claim.

Offline Jangoo

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15642#msg15642
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2010, 11:45:24 pm »

What I am trying to understand here is why he considers playing an immo instead of a dragon a couple turns later "making himself loose more" or in his other words "an investment that wasn't going to return as much damage as quickly as my other investment option."

I was deliberately forgetting about grav-shield here to take that risk-curve out of the equation and receive a pure and clean situation for the "mana-curve" or better "investment (curve)" idea.

And here, I simply dont see why waiting for the dragon should do any good.  :D


Offline jmizzle7

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15646#msg15646
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2010, 12:37:07 am »
What I am trying to understand here is why he considers playing an immo instead of a dragon a couple turns later "making himself loose more" or in his other words "an investment that wasn't going to return as much damage as quickly as my other investment option."

I was deliberately forgetting about grav-shield here to take that risk-curve out of the equation and receive a pure and clean situation for the "mana-curve" or better "investment (curve)" idea.

And here, I simply dont see why waiting for the dragon should do any good.  :D
It doesn't, given current the status of the cards. But Phase Dragon and its Elite counterpart were not always that expensive to cast. Before the final Phase Dragon nerf, it had a higher damage/quantum ratio than Immortal.

Offline EssenceTopic starter

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Re: The "Mana Curve": Throwing M:tG logic on it's head https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg15660#msg15660
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2010, 01:53:49 am »
Actually, you're both wrong.  Damage-to-quanta ratio only applies on turn 1.  Every turn following that, the higher-damage creature gets progressively better than the lower-damage creature.  To wit, assuming you have 5 Pillars on turn 1 and then draw nothing but Immortals or Phase Dragons:

Code: [Select]
Turn   Quanta     Immortals--total damage    Phase Dragons-- total damage
1           5                    0--0                             0--0
2           10                  1--5                             0--0
3           15                  2--15                           1--10
4           20                  2--20                           1--20
5           25                  3--35                           2--40
6           30                  4--55                           2--60
7           35                  5--70                           2--80
8           40                  5--95                           3--110
That's a basic example, but the point is that, over time, the Phase Dragon deals lethal damage faster than the Immortal, so Immortals are basically only there so that there's something immaterial that doesn't get totally stopped by a Gravity Shield.  In almost every other mathematically-provable case, Phase Dragons win faster, which translates directly into losing less.
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