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bobcamel

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11784#msg11784
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

No, the crochet hook is out of the sack.

...also, well... some carddraw possiblities for other elements would be nice, surely. On the other side, Time has all the other cards pretty weak, really.

Delreich

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11785#msg11785
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »
Poison is a gimmick deck, based more on luck than anything.
Oh, that's a good one. Wrong thread though, should go here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,424.msg3670#msg3670 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,424.msg3670#msg3670)

Light is very similar, [...] having some of the best support cards in the game.
Again, you're great at these. Hilarious, but still the wrong thread.



Yes, card advantage is powerful, to an extent most people don't seem to get. Yes, hourglass is a bit overpowered.
However, hourglasses are far from the most overpowered cards, and the slight adjustment suggested by ck here (http://elementstheforum.smfforfree3.com/index.php/topic,1308.0.html) is probably enough.

As for those who keep arguing about mono decks not being strong enough:
There's twelve elements in this game. If you go mono, you're picking from just one twelfth of all the available cards. And you're surprised your deck is weak? Duh!

Offline Demagog

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11786#msg11786
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

The real strength behind rainbow decks is that they rely on waiting until they have exactly what they need. If your mono-deck has no way of destroying sundials/hourglasses, you either need to get lucky or be able to withstand the onslaught once they are ready (or forced) to stop playing sundials. Currently this is difficult to do, your best bet would probably be to use immortal or buried creatures to withstand devour and fire storms, then using spell cards to kill FQ's so they can't get a ton of creatures, eliminating most healing and the source of most of their attack.

SG's anti-rainbow is nearly completely mono, and it does very well against rainbows. It eliminates the delaying/drawing tactics of rainbows, rather than withstanding the attacks at the end game (although it can do this for a few turns with a diamond shield).

Anyway, I'd say invulnerability is the way to go for defeating a rainbow without using permanent control, along with some creature control against FQ's.

Another method would be to use Uzra's or Jellyfish's "annoying" decks and replace a card with steal or explosion, then remove the player's eternity when they play it, so they deck out.

Offline Demagog

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11787#msg11787
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

(By the way, an easy way to win Top 50 consistently as I inadvertently discovered, is to just cancel every game against an Entropy or Time Mark player and keep going until you hit any other type of Mark.  Use your False God farming deck and gg, free wins.)

Except when you cancel a game when the opponent is picked, it counts as a loss. My record is 558-883 at the moment from when I rare farmed. Worth it though :-)

Scaredgirl

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11788#msg11788
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Electrum Hourglass needs to cost a LOT more to bring out and a lot more to use its extra draw effect.  1 time quantum per draw is unacceptable.

Wtf? Nerfing Hourglass like that would make it one of the worst cards in this game.

Make a mono-time deck with Hourglasses, go test it, and then come back and tell us how "amazing" it is. Then imagine what it would be like if the card cost 5-6 and hasten cost 2.

sillyking14

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11789#msg11789
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

i don't think that the answer is to nerf any existing cards. the answer is to improve mono-decks. after all rainbow decks are awesome, theres no denying it, but if you add card to the other elements so that they can face rainbow decks. and i don't mean cards specifically meant to be anti-rainbow but cards that allow mono- or even duo decks to compete with rainbow. of course i think that kinda the point of he elements part of elements is that each element has a specific strength. for example fire, is great for rushing, deflags serve to stop your opponent from stalling you. and that theme kind of matches what fire does. it burns hot, and fast, but if you pour water or dirt, or do anything to suffocate it then it falls apart. so if we add cards to each element to make them all balanced then we kind of lose that. and then your choice of element is pretty much aesthetic. another choice is to get rid of the quantum pillar card. now i know i'm gonna get a lot of flak from rainbow users for this but i do think that it would make the game more balanced. i mean really, there are only a few decks that can counter a rainbow deck. theres the poison rush, firebolt spam, and if you get a good draw then fire rush, dark rush, and earth rush can also beat them. but thats just a few. if we got rid of quantum pillars that would mean that mono-duo decks are the way to go. again we'd have to add cards so that they can compete against the gods, but at least the elements system would be preserved.

sillyking14

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11790#msg11790
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

well yeah there are ways to defeat rainbow decks, if you have a deck specifically built for it, but how would such a deck fare against mono-decks? i don't know, that was a serious question. the idea (i think) is to try to balance it so that mono/duo decks are able to compete with rainbow decks in general, like in god-killing ability. i mean right now there are (that i have seen/heard about) 2 basic god-killing decks. SG's rainbow and alaska's rainbow. which is more variety than we have for mono-decks. which is pretty much limited to mono-aether. again this is based on what i have seen/heard about. if there is another mono deck out there that can beat gods with good consistency then please let me know.

Wingflier

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11791#msg11791
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Haha so I'm not the only one who knows about it ;p

The cat's out of the bag

Wingflier

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11792#msg11792
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

I first want to start off before I begin my rant by saying I love Elements, if I didn't I wouldn't waste my time making posts about it.

Having said that, I have noticed a huge problem in the design of the game.  It wouldn't be that hard to fix, but right now it's affecting it in a very negative way.

The problem in short:  Extra Draw cards - which include the Sundial and the Electrum Hourglass.

Now this may not seem like a very big deal at first glance, but it really is.  By having only one element that gets the ability to perform extra draws, you are basically forcing the player to include this element in their deck.  As soon as one player gets an extra draw card, they suddenly have a 2x advantage over their opponent, as they are getting twice as many cards per turn.  Obviously, the more draws you get, the higher this advantage goes up.

The ONLY way to defeat the time or rainbow deck is to play one of the two colors which can destroy permanents with spells:  Fire or Dark, since they can easily remove the extra draw cards from the game, and nullify that advantage.  However, every other mono color deck is royally screwed, because as soon as the game becomes a 2x draw for his opponent, it's pretty much over.

This is why the major Top 50 decks are either rainbow decks, heavily reliant on extra draw cards, or Fire Rush decks, which directly counter the permanents which allow the user to do this.  All of the rest of the decks are really underpowered compared to this.

If you don't believe me go check it out!  I've spent the last 3 hours just running through as many Top 50 matches as I could.  If the opponent's Mark was Entropy or Time, I just cancelled the match, since they would obviously be using extra draw cards.  The only other 2 types of decks you saw were poison and fire.  Poison is a gimmick deck, based more on luck than anything, and fire decks like I said before, directly counter the extra draw deck, but even then they usually lose.

Here's an important point:  If a player could design a deck that could beat an opponent who got 2 draws per turn (naturally), had a 90 card deck full of only elites, and got 3 of his mark per turn (instead of the normal 1), do you think this deck would be very balanced?  Of course it wouldn't, it would be ridiculous.  Welcome to False Gods and the deck I just mentioned.  False Gods should be nearly impossible to beat, it's not a coincidence that the deck that does it consistently is chocked full of extra draw cards.

If you don't agree with me I hope you have a really good argument.  Like I said, go check the Top 50 decks and 75% of the decks you will see are extra draw, the other 25% being mass poison or fire rush.  Should the game really be this narrowly designed?  I feel like the user should have the ability to build a mono color deck out of any color and be at least somewhat successful.  Time cards should NOT have to be included in their decks to win consistently.  (By the way, an easy way to win Top 50 consistently as I inadvertently discovered, is to just cancel every game against an Entropy or Time Mark player and keep going until you hit any other type of Mark.  Use your False God farming deck and gg, free wins.)

Suggestions:  Reduce Sundial Duration to 1 turn.  It would still be an awesome card.

Electrum Hourglass needs to cost a LOT more to bring out and a lot more to use its extra draw effect.  1 time quantum per draw is unacceptable.







Wingflier

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11793#msg11793
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Quote
There's twelve elements in this game. If you go mono, you're picking from just one twelfth of all the available cards. And you're surprised your deck is weak? Duh!
There are 12 elements in the game, so common sense dictates that there should be at least a drawback by being able to use them all at once...

Mono-decks should have their advantages, otherwise everybody would just go rainbow decks (pretty much that's what they do right now) - every respectable card game in existence has the option to go mono, not sure where you're coming from.

Also I like all of CK's balance changes, I hope they add them!

Wingflier

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11794#msg11794
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:30 pm »

Quote
Wtf? Nerfing Hourglass like that would make it one of the worst cards in this game.

Make a mono-time deck with Hourglasses, go test it, and then come back and tell us how "amazing" it is. Then imagine what it would be like if the card cost 5-6 and hasten cost 2.
That's because Time isn't really made to be a mono-deck, most of their cards are supportive or are made to complement other decks; therefore your argument is pretty invalid.  Light is very similar, being an underpowered mono-deck, but having some of the best support cards in the game.

Of course Hourglass would suck in a mono-Time deck, so would all of the Time cards.

Quote
On the other side, Time has all the other cards pretty weak, really.
This isn't a question of how powerful the "Time" deck is.  I could care less if the rest of the Time deck (except the Hourglass and Sundial) were the worst cards in the game.  Nobody has to use them, and it certainly wouldn't ruin the game.

Offline jmizzle7

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The Major Problem with this game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1238.msg11894#msg11894
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:31 pm »

Continuing with Jellyfish's claim on the Elements metagame... There is a very healthy PvP metagame right now with all kinds of decks. One of my buddies, PuppyChow, is a very good deckbuilder who has made some effective trio decks for PvP. There are other great decks like the aforementioned Speed Poison, Shrieker Earth/Time, Dark/Earth denial, traditional mono-Fire, pillarless Lava Golems, Rainbow Control, Rainbow Aggro, Earth/Gravity, mono-Air, Deja PU... the list goes on and on, and each are very good at what they do.

 

blarg: