Author

Wyand · « **on:** April 14, 2024, 08:04:12 pm »

Thought I run more tests regarding Elements (via Flashpoint). I was curious about the fat old guy's - a.k.a. Oracle - rolling chances.

My method consisted of rolling the Oracle repeatedly and editing the *_lastoracle.txt file in between rolls to make multiple rolls per day possible.
Initially did the testing manually, then started using a mouse clicker/keyboard press utility.

Things went quite ok until 150 rolls - though I noticed some patterns, some cards got rolled a bit more often than others, but I didn't really care,
thought it is only about obtaining a big enough sample. After 150 rolls something happened: certain cards started to build up
a godawful lead against the rest. Really wanted to figure out what is causing the anomaly, so I started to change some variables.
One might point out that using a script might have affected the outcomes, but that's not true, I started using that only after 250 rolls.

Things I changed:

- the date in *_lastoracle.txt;
- randomized the pixel where the script clicked;
- created new logins.

None of these helped. Always the same set of cards appeared, again and again. I wonder that the culprit might be a setting, some
session file, or who-knows-what in Flashpoint. Maybe someone else has an idea about what is causing this?

Spoiler for Testing results (not full, got bored after a while looking at the screenshots):

J617 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 31, 2024, 02:20:15 am »

I see that it has been a couple years since I have signed onto this site.

In Flashpoint I have kept track of my Oracle spins. It didn't take me long at all to notice the repetitiveness of the Oracle's spins. My 12th spin was repeated again exactly on my 16th spin and on my 19th spin, etc. There have been so many exact repeats. There are also many close repeats. Thus, the rares I have are largely multiples of the same ones. Odd thing is that these aren't necessarily the same ones I got so readily in the original game. So I figure that like a lot of games in Flashpoint, there may be a limit to what it can do. (This includes playing a game where I have occasionally noticed the exact same cards in the exact same order for both myself and my opponent.)

I must admit that I have had some fun trying to again play against some of the Oracle's listed FGs from a starting hand. Naturally, I would much rather play with my more abundant amount of cards as then I can make more fun decks. I miss having Purple Nymphs (my favorite) to play against the FGs as I made multiple decks using them. Playing mono Aether against some of them just isn't as gratifying. I also always play my pets. In fact my purpose of spinning is to play the listed FGs and my pets, so I always had at least $1500 prior to spinning so that I could purchase any unupgraded cards I wanted. Now that I have most of the unupgraded cards I spin the Oracle more often. And no, I have not sold any upgraded cards unless they were in excess of 6, even ones which I don't expect to use.

(If anyone thinks anything of me spinning the Oracle extra times, first of all, one can't compete in Flashpoint, and secondly, I have had to start over so many times over the years it just seems wrong to have to do so again (and that doesn't even include the deleting of many of my cards when others had theirs deleted, but most got theirs back while I did not, not even my nymphs). Keep in mind that many people copied their decks into Flashpoint, while I don't understand how that is accomplished).

I have yet to see a shard from either the Oracle or from winning spins, but at least I have some nymphs (most of them being Nymph Queens).

I got off track, my purpose of writing was to list, in order, all my 500 Oracle spins (thus far), so that people can see just how much they repeat.

It will be listed as: card / $ / FG / pet
(--- means nothing was listed in the slot)

Spoiler for Hidden:

(I really should take a break from Flashpoint and play the Revival version more, hoping that one day it will have all its many flaws fixed and we will also be able to use the other sections.)

Janice

Wyand · « **Reply #2 on:** September 01, 2024, 09:29:36 pm »

Hi Janice!

Seems I'm not the only one with a penchant for statistics.

Wyand

ps: ... and of course being nostalgic forever.

J617 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2024, 02:58:23 am »

While I understand statistics, I wasn't caring about that, I just wanted to keep track for my own information. And I posted it so that someone else can see the data or do statistics with the information if they want. Even if it was only to see if it was worth the bother for them to play on Flashpoint. As one can see, rares (especially nymphs) were awarded more often than in the original, they were just quite repetitive.

I also kept track of all the rares I won in order, noting if they were regular, upgraded, or Oracle spins, I just don't think that would be of much help to others.

By the way Wyand, I am jealous of your winning a Purple Nymph. I did make use of some of my Nymph Queens against the FGs, but I would have much preferred to again have my Purple Nymphs.

I have moved on to Revival for now. I sure hope that Sparklmonkey plans on continuing to improve the game. I would be happy to make and provide a list of the many things which need improvement if the Sparklemonkey member listed here is the same as the one who made the Revival version and would welcome me pming him the data. It would take some time to make as there is plenty to list. (If anyone knows the answer to this, let me know.) On another note, there is an improvement or two. One being that it lists the cards won on the regular spins so if someone looks away they don't miss seeing what they won.

Janice

Wyand · « **Reply #4 on:** September 02, 2024, 02:48:36 pm »

Janice, just search for your savegame on your comp (probably named j617.txt), and replace the lines starting
with "decka" and "deckan" with the following:

Code: [Select]

decka=x08210120613012034001223400120033012001101200120120013012001401200150120016012001701200180120019012002001200210120022012012001201300120109012022001202300120210012032001203300120308012042001204300120407012052001205300120509012062001206300120607012072001207070120730012070801208200120810012083001208090120920012093001209090121020012101201210300121008012112001211300121107012120601212200121230012
deckan=672

This way you'll get all of the rares, nymphs etc. except for normal cards. You can buy those from the bazaar anyways, just add yourself tons of electrum. (That's the second line in the same file.)

J617 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 03, 2024, 09:51:36 am »

Wow, that is a lot. Thank you, Wyand. Using a different account name I tried multiple times to make it work, then finally succeeded. But I thought about it and if I were to use this I wouldn't want it under that name, so I DELETE'd it and made another account. This time it took many more tries to succeed. If I hadn't succeeded previously I might have given up. But I waited a few hours and then tried again and after a few tries, I finally again succeeded. I don't know if I will use this deck as it is basically Elements Trainer with marks in addition, so it may not be viable, but at least I have it in case I want it. Since the Revival's import/export doesn't work, I have been using the Flashpoint's Elements Trainer to make the deck and save the codes. Besides having all the cards it is separate from Elements so I can have one of both up if desired (which I had been doing when I was playing in Flashpoint).

Regarding Elements Trainer, I never understood why it wasn't savable if one just kept it basic and tried beating all the squares. I previously attempted that for awhile, not knowing that if I took the page down that it would all disappear. I thought that it was fun playing there and a different type of challenge if one wanted something different, so I was disappointed. I really never understood the point of that version having no memory.

Does anyone know if the Revival will continue to improve and if Sparklmonkey intends to add dueling after the rest is fixed? I ask because I finally started hubby playing the game. He hasn't gotten far as he doesn't have much time as yet, but it was because of the possibility of dueling that this happened. He did get his free weapon, but now he will just play in Flashpoint because like myself he hates the sizing of the Revival game, that it can't fit on the whole page (without being excessively tiny) and it is blurry. And unlike myself I actually have him playing on the itch.io version which isn't quite as blurry. Besides, on Flashpoint he can learn how the cards are supposed to play.

Maybe I should have divided up my comments here, to post on the appropriate pages, but oh well. So little new is happening on these forums these days that I doubt it will be a problem.

Janice

serprex · « **Reply #6 on:** September 03, 2024, 01:59:18 pm »

Revival is still under active development, Sparklmonkey responds on both the etg discord & his own revival discord. He's working on the pvp code, I think his priority for last couple years was dealing with bugs first

ofc, there's always openEtG, which I'm still maintaining & making slow development with. But I understand that for you it'd be a different game

J617 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 03, 2024, 08:46:59 pm »

Thank you serprex for the information. You always have a fount of knowledge. Good to know that he does plan to continue to keep improving Revival. Too bad that I can't pm him here though as I will never sign in to Discord. I will just have to play and wait.

As for OpenEtG, yeah, not without my having a list of cards and their abilities prior to deciding an element to start in. Never again. I don't remember if there was another reason besides that and Discord. The best card games that I could find for dueling for hubby would be Elements and Spectromancer (which I never found until Flashpoint and doubt that they are resurrecting).

Janice

Wyand · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2024, 10:54:31 pm »

Well, this is crazy!

I wonder what is causing the bug... there must be a setting. I wonder if it is linked to the current time on the computer.
Or maybe, it is linked to the server time! And since it cannot read the server time now... Random engines always use
some source to generate the random numbers. Back in the day it might have used some data from our comp,
and also some data from the server. And because now it cannot get data from the server, and the data on our comp is always
the same it creates these repetitions.

I wrote this post, because yesterday and today I rolled about the same time (0:40 here), and both times I got Immolation,
Ash Eater as a pet, and when I started playing against AI4 got Distis as the 1st opponent... Hell, I sorta feel now
that even my hand was the same! Yes, I'm sure now! And the AI played the same Fallen Elf... Let's see if other things
stay the same... Antimatter, Mutation, Amethyst Dragon... same stuff from the AI... same cards from my deck... This is
unbelievable!

J617 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 07, 2024, 11:21:54 pm »

Wyand, I showed exactly the same thing in my first post under this category. I showed multiple times under spoiler where I got the exact same thing the very next spin a few times, and I mentioned:

Quote

(This includes playing a game where I have occasionally noticed the exact same cards in the exact same order for both myself and my opponent.)

This happens periodically; I am kinda surprised that you didn't notice this before now. It had nothing to do with that time of day though because if it was the very next spin of mine it was not the exact same time of day. Keep in mind that of those times of mine where you see an exact repeat a few turns away, those might also have been an exact repeat game as that I likewise encountered. Those repeat games can of course be changed a little if one plays their cards in a different order. I have done this and thus I somewhat improved the game.

Janice

Wyand · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2024, 09:11:36 am »

I made a 1000 games test for a deck lately, and none of these shenanigans were apparent...
Maybe it existed versus the same AI4 opponents? Sometimes I played against the same AI4
opponents twice in a row, and the games did not seem the same.

Quote from: J617 on September 07, 2024, 11:21:54 pm

Quote
(This includes playing a game where I have occasionally noticed the exact same cards in the exact same order for both myself and my opponent.)

I vaguely remembered it while writing my post, but it was almost 1AM here, so... It would be so nice to consult Zanz about this, to know
how the random things worked in this game. I'm pretty sure there some server-side thing and the absence of it makes these silly things.
(Though there are some things which contradict this - the Oracle problems weren't apparent until 100-150 tries, the distribution was quite even.)

I wish I had the knowledge and time to figure these things out (and maybe reverse engineer it).

J617 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 08, 2024, 10:55:27 am »

Wyand, I forgot that you were mostly battling level 4. I wouldn't be surprised if those battles weren't as likely the same as they are so random to begin with, that they may not use the same cards. I believe that I had some identical battles against level 3, but it was the FG battles (which the Oracle listed) which were VERY noticeably EXACTLY THE SAME.

I don't have any answers except what I previously mention about Flashpoint maybe having limitations. I will give an example of an extreme circumstance which I noticed. I had many years ago played a version of Hearts and had enjoyed that version. However, in Flashpoint I kept getting the same few hands over and over, played exactly the same by all opponents unless I changed my play as they also had the exact same cards. There were no different decks. I noticed other Flashpoint Hearts games had the same problem. Very frustrating. Elements is significantly better in that regard. Remember it wasn't Zanz which put it on Flashpoint, someone else basically hacked it and put it on. It is not the same as the original as I did not get such repetitive Oracle spins in that version.

Quote

(Though there are some things which contradict this - the Oracle problems weren't apparent until 100-150 tries, the distribution was quite even.)

If you view my Oracle spins you would see the repetitiveness of the spins were apparent very early in my spins. It seemed to get worse as time progressed.

I don't know if you were lucky or I was unlucky....

Janice

Author

Wyand

Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308117#msg1308117

J617

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308140#msg1308140

Wyand

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308141#msg1308141

J617

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308142#msg1308142

Wyand

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308143#msg1308143

J617

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308144#msg1308144

serprex

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308145#msg1308145

J617

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308146#msg1308146

Wyand

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308147#msg1308147

J617

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308148#msg1308148

Wyand

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308149#msg1308149

J617

Re: Testing out the Oracle https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=68312.msg1308150#msg1308150