Steam Engine | Lava Golem Table

[harakirinosaru]

Someone in chat remarked that it takes a whole match for a Steam Engine to overtake a Lava Golem. So I thought I'd see. Here's what I've found.

Turns	Steam Engine	Lava Golem
1	0|8	5|1
2	4|8 3|8	7|3
3	7|8 6|8	9|5
4	10|8 9|8	11|7
5	13|8 12|8	13|9
6	16|8 15|8	15|11
7	19|8 18|8	17|11
8	22|8 21|8	19|13
9	25|8 24|8	21|15
10	28|8	23|17

It takes 5|7 turns for a Steam Engine to outrace a Lava Destroyer. Any longer than that, and it becomes better.

[Retribution]

Keep in mind, though, that by the 6-7th turn, the cost of steam machine is probably double that of the lava golem.

[teffy]

Better compare the Steam Engine with Graviton Fireeater/Firemaster.
This cards is more similar to Steam Engine


The advantage compared to the Fireeater is, that it "grows" faster and has a bit higher health.
The advantage compared to Lava Golem is, that it has high health, when it comes into play and Lava Golem really low health.

The disadvantage of Steam Engine is, that it has "upkeep costs" and needs many quanta of Water and Fire.

[bojengles77]

The attack at the beginning of the turn is all that really matters for steam machine. I would say that the upkeep cost of steam machine is a negative, and the fact that it is a bit slower than golems. The major upside to a steam machine is its hp, especially upgraded. The difference between putting out a card with 15 hp first turn and 1 hp first turn is huge. Any CC spell, including fire shield will take down a golem first turn, and most will take him down 2nd or 3rd turn. However, it takes several spells to take down a steam machine. There are positives and downsides to both. My guess is that golem will continue to be more popular, but i think people are overlooking the benefits of survivability in a long rainbow-game. I wouldn't recommend steam machines for rush decks. (works well with SoR too)

[Malduk]

Someone in chat remarked that it takes a whole match for a Steam Engine to overtake a Lava Golem. So I thought I'd see. Here's what I've found.

It takes 5|7 turns for a Steam Engine to outrace a Lava Destroyer. Any longer than that, and it becomes better.

I said that, and I was talking about Destroyer, and your calculations are incomplete.

At turn 8, after both are placed, provided you have enough quanta to supply them, Steam will have attack of 22, while Destroyer will have attack of 21.
Including that turn, Steam will make overall damage of 91, while Destroyer will make overall damage of 114.

[bojengles77]

I don't think there is a dispute about golems being faster - they are faster, its jsut about the pros and cons of being faster vs having more survivability.

[Terroking]

Someone in chat remarked that it takes a whole match for a Steam Engine to overtake a Lava Golem. So I thought I'd see. Here's what I've found.

It takes 5|7 turns for a Steam Engine to outrace a Lava Destroyer. Any longer than that, and it becomes better.

I said that, and I was talking about Destroyer, and your calculations are incomplete.

At turn 8, after both are placed, provided you have enough quanta to supply them, Steam will have attack of 22, while Destroyer will have attack of 21.
Including that turn, Steam will make overall damage of 91, while Destroyer will make overall damage of 114.

I was going to comment, but since you ninja'd me I'll just put it up anyways.

I added a little something to the chart, to make it more accurate, because it now shows what has done more total damage, since if one has already killed the opponent, the other's attack is irrelevant.

Steam Engine:

1|0/8- 0 damage 5
2|3/8- 4 damage 5 2
3|6/8- 11 damage 5 4
4|9/8- 21 damage 5 6
5|12/8- 34 damage 5 8
6|15/8- 50 damage 5 10
7|18/8- 69 damage 5 12
8|21/8- 91 damage 5 14
9|24/8- 116 damage 5 16

And then you win, unless your Machine is dead, stalled, blocked, or your opponent is using any type of healing.

Lava Golem:

1|5/1- 5 damage 5
2|7/3- 12 damage 5 1
3|9/5- 21 damage (Incidentally, exactly 1 turn ahead of SE in damage and attack) 5 2
4|11/7- 33 damage 5 3
5|13/9- 46 damage 5 4
6|15/11- 61 damage 5 5
7|17/13- 78 damage 5 6
8|19/15- 97 damage 5 7
9|21/17- 118 damage 5 8

So, either Zanz already planned they could kill at the same rate, or this has all come together nicely. Of course, the Lava Golem in this chart is unupgraded, and has the risk of easily being killed before it can even deal 6 damage, but the Steam Machine has the disadvantage of costing a bucketload of quanta.

And, since someone is sure to ask, the Destroyer should make the kill-shot at the 8-turn mark, unless of course my math is completely screwed up (Which I have a sinking feeling it will turn out to be...)

Lava Destroyer:

1|7/1- 7 damage 5
2|9/3- 16 damage 5 1
3|11/5- 27 damage 5 2
4|13/7- 40 damage 5 3
5|15/9- 55 damage 5 4
6|17/11- 72 damage 5 5
7|19/13- 91 damage 5 6
8|21/15- 112 damage 5 7

So, to those who said Golems are faster, be amazed!

[bojengles77]

So, to those who said Golems are faster, be amazed!

Sorry, i should have clarified. I'm talking explicitly about the upgraded versions of both cards. When i referred to golem, i meant lava destroyer. Obviously the card that starts 7/1 is faster than the one that starts 5/1 =P. it starts with 2 more atp, so over 8 turns it will do 8*2 = 16 more damage.

[Malduk]

Your calculation proves that golems/destroyers are indeed faster. While talking about speed, it is important to take into account other creatures in play, which are practically lowering the number of turns it takes to kill, giving more advantage to creatures that deal damage now, as opposed to later.

[PuppyChow]

To quote myself:

Having thought more about it, Steam Machine is amazingly underpowered.

Let's compare it to Abyss Crawler. 6/6 for 4  .



Accumulative damage, if both are played on the same turn:

Creature	Turn 1	Turn 2	Turn 3	Turn 4	Turn 5	Turn 6
Abyssal Crawler	6	12	18	24	30	36
Steam Machine	0	4	11	21	34	51

So you see, Steam Machine doesn't start doing more damage until 5 turns in, at which point it will start doing much more. Still, it's a moot point, when you also look at the accumulative COSTS.

Accumulative cost, if both are played on the same turn:

Creature	Turn 1	Turn 2	Turn 3	Turn 4	Turn 5	Turn 6
Abyssal Crawler	4	4	4	4	4	4
Steam Machine	5	5 , 2	5 , 4	5 , 6	5 , 8	5 , 10

Using unupped steam machine because the upped version has no effect on attack and so gives it the best ratio.
Or, if you look at it with SoR, you're just paying 8  (mono probably) but no fire quanta at all. But that's a two card combo, and still costs double that of Abyssal Crawler.

Also worth mentioning is the control the two cards are susceptible to.

Abyssal Crawler	Rage Elixir	10+ Quanta Fire Bolt, 20+ Quanta other "Bolt-Like" Spell	Congeal	Antimatter	Gravity Pull	Devour
Steam Machine	40+ Quanta Fire Bolt, 70+ Quanta other "Bolt-Like" Spell	Lobo	Congeal	Rewind	Mutation	Quanta Denial (limited)	Antimatter (limited)	Gravity Pull (limited)

So you see, in some ways the Steam Machine is just as vulnerable to control as Abyssal Crawler is, just in different ways. I used the upped version of steam machine in this instance, so keep in mind that it also costs nearly twice as much.


To recap:
-Doesn't out-damage Abyssal Crawler until turn 5
-You will have paid at least 8 by then, more likely 5 8 . Upped, add 2 to both of those. Comparably, you will have only paid 4  with the Crawler
-Upped Machine is just as easy to control as Abyssal Crawler and unupped is probably even easier



Now, the problem with the Steam Machine isn't the ability cost. 2 Fire for what amounts to +3/+0 each turn is respectable, and the purpose of Steam Machine was to give SoR a good use. Having the ability cost 1 Fire does not give any use to SoR.

Instead, the initial cost is the problem. I would say make it cost drastically lower. 4 Water unupped, 5 Water upped for starters. Maybe as low as 3 Water unupped, 4 Water upped.

[Wisemage]

Steam MAchine is really meant to be used WITH SoR

[jmdt]

If I'm using a steam machine, or a fireeater alond the same lines, I'm not looking at speed.  With SoR, SoG, congeal, permafrost shield, squid, fire lance, RoF, explosion, and maybe even upped sundials, water/fire has plenty of options to stall or slow the pace of the game.  I've had destroyers killed in the first 2-3 turns several times.  Steam machine takes 3 direct blasts from thunderbolt before falling and that says a bunch.  As a life rush fan, even the difference from 3 to 5 from the frog to cockatrice makes a big difference.  In a long term strategy, the extra costs from steam machine won't be as big of a deal.  Will I use steam machine over lava destroyer, probably not, but I only use destroyer in my speed rainbows anyways.  A steam machine would be a nice addition to slower decks such as a timemark rainbow.