*Author

Offline EssenceTopic starter

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4340
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 57
  • Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.
  • Voice of the Oracle -- Jezzie's Pimp -- Often Gone
  • Awards: 2nd Trials - Master of Water1st Trials - Master of WaterFG Deck-Designer - The OutcastsShard Madness! Competition WinnerEpic 3 Card Design Competition WinnerElder Recruiter
Stability vs. Versatility: Throwing M:tG logic on it's head. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1719.msg15160#msg15160
« on: December 31, 2009, 11:41:56 pm »
In M:tG, the basic rule is that, for stability's sake, you want as few cards as possible in your deck, and the fewest different cards in your deck.  For example, in traditional tourney rules, you want a 60-card deck (the minimum size), and 4 iterations of each card (the maximum allowed, which means the fewest different cards in your deck.) 

I've seen longtime CCG players like ScaredGirl apply that same reasoning to Elements, and I'm going out on a limb and saying that it doesn't apply here.  The rules and the card supply are simply too different.

By card supply, I mean that in Elements, especially after the Sundial correction, it's almost impossible to build a deck that wins by any method other than creature attacks.  There are few Firebolt killers and fewer Eternity deckout machines nowadays, because the stalling provided by Sundial was pretty much mission-critical to both of those. 

That means that, realistically, the only threat you need to deal with to survive is "creature attacks".  On the other hand, the only threat your opponent has to deal with is "creature attacks" -- and there are a wide variety of ways to deal with "creature attacks", from Otyugh consumption to shields to Firestorms and Plagues to simply having a faster or more unstoppable creature attack. 

Where the winning happens, then, is not in your ability to perform "creature attacks", but in your ability to counter your opponent's method of countering your creature attacks, and prevent him from countering your own counter-creature-attacks.  (To this end, Quintessence has been huge, as Quintessence+Otyugh is a very hard-to-stop counter-creature-attack,and decks that can get that combo out first are at a huge advantage.)

The point is that in Elements, it's not enough to have a solid plan of attack -- you need a solid plan of counter-defense to go with it, and because defenses come in such a variety, you need a variety of counter-defenses.  Permanent destruction to stop the shields and healing, creature destruction to stop the fast attackers, and untargetability to stop the 'active defenses' like Thunderbolt and Eagle's Eye.

To that effect, I am firmly of the opinion that to survive in the PVP and Lvl5+ milieu, a deck has to have stability in it's offense, but variety in its counter-defense.  A 30-card deck that packs 6 Explosion for counter-defense is going to perform less well in general than a 30-card deck that packs 2 Explosion, 2 Thunderbolt, and 2 Quintessence for counter-defense.

Stability is critical on the attack -- if you don't have a strong plan and the ability to execute it, go home.  Similarly, if you can't get a strong defense up (even if that defense is "attack faster and harder"), you're doomed to fail.  But that same logic no longer applies when dealing with counter-defenses, and that element of Elements is very important when you're dealing with the upper-level game.




If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

Offline coinich

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1557
  • Reputation Power: 19
  • coinich is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.coinich is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.coinich is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
  • Old to Elements
  • Awards: War #5 Winner - Team Aether
Re: Stability vs. Versatility: Throwing M:tG logic on it's head. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1719.msg15199#msg15199
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2010, 05:57:13 am »
The one thing I want to add to this is card draw.  I think if card draw were more prolific than it was, 60 card decks might be a bit more common in the PVP metagame.

Celidion

  • Guest
Re: Stability vs. Versatility: Throwing M:tG logic on it's head. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1719.msg15208#msg15208
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2010, 07:18:33 am »
The one thing I want to add to this is card draw.  I think if card draw were more prolific than it was, 60 card decks might be a bit more common in the PVP metagame.
Hourglasses.

Goldfish2

  • Guest
Re: Stability vs. Versatility: Throwing M:tG logic on it's head. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1719.msg15212#msg15212
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2010, 09:00:03 am »
An excellent surmation Esscence.

There are 3 key differences and 1 minor difference (IMHO) that means that elements function differentally (at least in deck size)

1) No Creature blocking (using your creatures)

This means that your creature attack and defence are two very seperate things which require different cards within the deck to deal with it (even if as you say your defence is to kill them before they kill you)

2) 100 life Vs 20 life
This is a massive difference which means your life as a resource is far more expendable. You can "burn" a turn or two taking damage whilst setting something up rather than have to react

3) No instants (actions taken in opponents turn)
This means that there is no need to have the answer sitting in hand at any given moment to stop your opp setting something up that will serious damage your chances of winning (Quintessence+Otyugh).

3) Minor point (as raised) is the lack of early mulitple draw. Sundial and to a greater extent Hourglass are solid but slow (compared to the magic quivelent)

Basically given all this (along with the lack of hand destruction and milling effects) unless you have a very focuse agressive deck (kill them before they kill you approach) then the minimum deck size does not apply as you can not have a balanced well performing deck (espically controlling) with 30 cards.

That all said we don't want a MTG clone and I really enjoy the game [as you may have guessed I do indeed play MTG...a fair bit]

Offline jmizzle7

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3058
  • Reputation Power: 34
  • jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.jmizzle7 is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • I'm kind of a big deal. People know me.
  • Awards: Weekly Tournament WinnerSS Competition #1 1stCard Design Competition Winner
Re: Stability vs. Versatility: Throwing M:tG logic on it's head. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1719.msg15214#msg15214
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2010, 10:14:13 am »
The one thing I want to add to this is card draw.  I think if card draw were more prolific than it was, 60 card decks might be a bit more common in the PVP metagame.
Hourglasses.
Celidion, he said prolific, not existent. There are two cards in the entire game that provide extra card drawing. That is less than 1.5% of the total card pool. Because of this, players are forced to play with fewer cards than they might like in order to maximize the consistency of performance of their deck. I think the game needs more card drawing options before other win conditions become viable. The game is much too fast for deckout strategies, and direct damage-based decks like Sundial/Lance have been crippled by the Sundial nerf. As Essence said, the key to deck building lies not only in your ability to construct a solid win condition (in most cases, through creature damage) but also in your ability to maintain pressure on your opponent or to disrupt your opponent's board position (Essence's "counter-defense") with redundancy, buffing, or removal.

 

anything
blarg: