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Offline bripod

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477257#msg477257
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2012, 07:52:44 pm »
Where would Control Type decks go? (Time Based, RT's & Eternity) In Break?
Guess I just always thought of it kinda as its on thing, but I guess it could fit...

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477334#msg477334
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2012, 10:57:17 pm »
On the other hand, Break decks don't have many ways to slow damage, which is necessary against a Rush. They'll simply get outrushed. Now Rush beats Break, and the circle is complete.
This is why some break decks also carry some stall. So they have enough time to finish off the opponent in the event of a rush.
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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477340#msg477340
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2012, 11:16:01 pm »
Your entire post is accurate except
There is exactly one card which, without comboing with different cards, can be used in all three ways. (Anyone figure out what it is? ;) )
There are many examples
Eagle's Eye (weapon slot cost reduction, snipe, permanent)
Pulverizer (weapon slot cost reduction, shatter, permanent)

If a card has multiple purposes (like Rage Elixir), it's balanced as long as all of its uses are balanced.
If a card could deal 5 damage to a target or give +1|+1 & momentum, it would cost more not equal to Lightning or Momentum. However the versatility tax is very low.

Finally decks tend to be dominated by 1-2 of these categories but almost all decks contain all 3 types
Control: (Stall >> Break > Rush)

Now, who's going to be the one to make the intricate diagram displaying this?
Oh its not so difficult. At the deck level it is a triangle graph denoting the character of the deck. Similar to MtG's (Aggro < Control < Combo < Aggro).

Offense
Defense/OffenseDefense/Offense/BreakOffense/Break
DefenseDefense/BreakBreak
At the card level it is a 4 dimensional (Offense, Defense, Break , Strength) graph with all balanced cards being a constant radius from the center.
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Offline zhangvict

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477342#msg477342
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2012, 11:21:29 pm »
Instosis and other OTK decks are good examples of a rush-stall-break. Sundials for stall, heavy card drawing for rush, and momentum/chimera/voodoo/catapult for break.

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477357#msg477357
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 12:42:15 am »
Instosis and other OTK decks are good examples of a rush-stall-break. Sundials for stall, heavy card drawing for rush, and momentum/chimera/voodoo/catapult for break.
OTK decks are actually combo decks.

Here's an excerpt from a recent Daily MtG article (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/rc/188) about deck archetypes:

Quote
In today's wide and varied field, it's impossible to neatly categorize everything, and some decks can play as multiple different deck types. But in general, I feel like there are six primary archetypes out there: aggro-control, beatdown, combo, control, midrange, and ramp.

How do you identify which archetype your deck is? One of the best metrics to identify which kind of deck you are playing is to look at how you ideally want the game to end. By looking at the endgame and working your way backward to the beginning, you can see what kind of cards will help you get to a winning position.

I would describe each of those six archetype's end states like this:

Aggro-Control: The game ends with a couple smaller, cheap, fragile creatures tapped and attacking. The graveyard has disruption spells, like countermagic and bounce, that have thrown off the opponent's game while you've attacked for a couple points of damage turn after turn.

Beatdown: The game ends with several cheaper creatures tapped and attacking or a burn spell pointed at the opponent's head. Most of the time the game has ended early, within the first six turns.

Combo: The game ends via some often unlikely combination of two or more cards carrying out the finishing blow in one fell swoop. Often the graveyard is full of library manipulation or deck searching to piece together the combo.

Control: The game ends after many, many turns, with the opponent low on resources after you have dealt with each of them in turn. You likely have one large threat in play which has attacked the opponent over several turns, or your planeswalker is about to go ultimate. Your graveyard is stockpiled with removal spells, board sweepers, countermagic, planeswalkers, and other ways to stay alive and generate card advantage

Midrange: The game ends with a couple inordinately large three-to-six-cost creatures tapped and attacking, potentially ones that have been accelerated out. Alternatively, one or more planeswalkers might be about to go ultimate. The graveyard likely has a handful of removal spells or other forms of light disruption.

Ramp: The game ends with several lands in play on your side of the battlefield and a single large threat—occasionally two very large threats—carrying you to victory. The graveyard and battlefield are full of acceleration and potentially a board sweeper or pinpoint removal spell.

Sometimes your deck can be a mashup of two archetypes, but in general you don't want your deck to be any more than that or it risks having an identity crisis. It's easy for a deck's plan to fracture under the stress of trying to compete from too many angles.
We can apply the same to Elements.

Aggro-Control would be a CC rush like a Shrieker rush with Basilisk Blood, or Novagrabby (which typically carries a few sources of creature control).

Beatdown would be a pure rush like mono-Life with Adrenalines instead of Heals, or a full-speed Immorush.

Combo would be an OTK deck like Instosis or Dragonblitz (lots of card draw, early stalling, then take down the opposition in one fell swoop).

Control would be a stall with a win condition other than deckout like Firestall with Fahrenheit and Fire Lances.

Midrange would be a CC rush with mid-range and/or harder to kill creatures like Ghostmare (GotP for creature threat, Nightmares and Rewinds for disruption and removal) or Tsunami (Abyss Crawlers and Toadfish, with Congeals for creature control).

Ramp would be most any Fractal-based deck with mid-range creatures like Fractal Chargers, Ghostal, etc. (survive early game with cards like Dim Shields and Lightnings, charge through with Fractalled creatures for the win).

A deck like Pestal would be an aggro-control ramp deck, with initial aggro-control elements (using Fractalled Pests) until it shifts its game strategy to win in a ramp style (with Fractalled Vampires).
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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477536#msg477536
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2012, 12:34:58 pm »
Instosis and other OTK decks are good examples of a rush-stall-break. Sundials for stall, heavy card drawing for rush, and momentum/chimera/voodoo/catapult for break.
OTK decks are actually combo decks.
Using RSB (or RDSB if you prefer), combo/OTK decks are exclusively stall-break. Sundial, CC, or shields serve as stall, and then the final hit has to be difficult to stop.

Generally a good post, but Elements is far more complex than a standard RPS. Decks like Stall Faster, Pestal (Denial), It's a Trap, and OTKs are not included in the Rush-Stall-Break method that you're talking about. The metagame is closer to RPS-n for some relatively large n (at least 6 IMO)
A more complicated model might be more accurate, but also harder to grasp and less newbie-friendly. Denial, for example, can easily go into the stall category. It's a Trap... no clue.

If a card could deal 5 damage to a target or give +1|+1 & momentum, it would cost more not equal to Lightning or Momentum. However the versatility tax is very low.
Well, true (thus why Purify's cost was increased). But usually this is such a small difference that it can be safely ignored, or addressed by a simple +1 cost increase, if the card really has multiple equally strong uses.

And as for all your guesses - Pulverizer is Rush-Break (it can destroy weapons too, but it usually is used to destroy shields and healing permanents), Eagle's Eye is Rush-Stall (all of its damage is blocked by shields), Arsenic is Rush-Break (poison sticks around, but it doesn't do anything to your opponent's damage), Blue Nymph is Stall-Break (high damage potential but really expensive and slow to get going). Fate Egg... doesn't count. :P

I'll give you guys another hint - it's a creature. ;)
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Offline AP579

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477543#msg477543
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2012, 05:47:32 pm »
...Mind...Flayer?

Toadfish?
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Offline Kardo

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477544#msg477544
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 06:02:34 pm »
Toadfish/Puffer fish (Kind of cheating the one card thing).
-Rush: Toadfish has a good cost/attack ratio for unupped water. Puffer can be used too, though slower.
-Stall: Toadfish has CC with Inflation.
-Break: Puffer fish's poison for alternative damage.

Edit: AP579 beat me to Toadfish.

Offline darkrobe

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477567#msg477567
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 10:13:51 pm »
pharoah is my current guess. produces scarabs which can eat (control/stall) and grow (break). in not sure how rushy it is though since to really rush out you kindof need the extra boost of SoR.

Ps. i like the breakdown of rush/control/break to the card level. It can get real complicated at the deck level obviously. but i think the simplicity here is good.

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477733#msg477733
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2012, 04:12:45 pm »
d) Denial (Pestal, Dishole, etc.)
Although Denial composes a large amount of the metagame, likely a larger amount than stalls, I don't feel that Denial deserves to be its own deck type purely because different denial decks don't have similar strengths and weaknesses. Reverse Time denial, for example, is great against Rushes, especially ones with Immolation and Nova. Earthquake, however, is generally not a good choice against rushes and almost useless against Immolation and Nova decks. As for Discord and Black Hole, what matters more is the quanta sources, and not the deck type. Discord is great against Monos and Duos, while Black Hole is effective against Rainbows. Earthquake is great against Sanctuary Stalls (which are the more common ones,) Discord is decent against them, Devourers are weak, and Reverse Time is nearly useless. To summarize, there's next to no correlation about deck type advantage between different denial strategies, and this makes it difficult to call its own deck type when comparing the strengths and weaknesses of deck types.

f) "Balance" (Rushy with control - e.g. Stall Faster)
Personally, I wouldn't really have Stall Faster as an example because it is one of the rare Domin Breaks, a deck that has a balance of damage and CC that is also effective against most stalls. Most "Balance" decks, based on your definition and the general definition of balance, wouldn't often do well against a stall. By devoting such a large amount of the deck to defense, there is less damage to break through the defenses of a stall. I find the other four definitions and examples fine.

Stall generally loses to Denial, loses to Balance
I find this completely off. Stalls usually pack Sanctuaries, and not much denial gets past that. Earthquake can, put stalls can and will split pillars and pendulums. Discord + Earthquake combined with huge damage is usually a solid strategy against stall, but that only makes up a small amount of all the denial available and used (BH, Nigthmare, RT, Devourer.) Plus, the kinds of Discord + EQ decks that are powerful enough to beat Sanctuary stalls pretty much have to devote their entire deck to beating stall, and wouldn't that make that deck a stallbreaker?

As for losing to Balance, Stalls usually lose to Stall Faster, but Stall Faster is an exception from most balance decks. The average balance deck doesn't have the kind of stallbreaking power to survive and hit past a stall because the average Balance will devote such a large amount of its deck to pure control, and not the rare stallbreaking that also functions as control.

Aggro-Control would be a CC rush like a Shrieker rush with Basilisk Blood, or Novagrabby (which typically carries a few sources of creature control).

Beatdown would be a pure rush like mono-Life with Adrenalines instead of Heals, or a full-speed Immorush.

Combo would be an OTK deck like Instosis or Dragonblitz (lots of card draw, early stalling, then take down the opposition in one fell swoop).

Control would be a stall with a win condition other than deckout like Firestall with Fahrenheit and Fire Lances.

Midrange would be a CC rush with mid-range and/or harder to kill creatures like Ghostmare (GotP for creature threat, Nightmares and Rewinds for disruption and removal) or Tsunami (Abyss Crawlers and Toadfish, with Congeals for creature control).

Ramp would be most any Fractal-based deck with mid-range creatures like Fractal Chargers, Ghostal, etc. (survive early game with cards like Dim Shields and Lightnings, charge through with Fractalled creatures for the win).

A deck like Pestal would be an aggro-control ramp deck, with initial aggro-control elements (using Fractalled Pests) until it shifts its game strategy to win in a ramp style (with Fractalled Vampires).
I think this is a good definition, but I have a couple comments. In my opinion, Combos and Ramps both have a similar job. Their damage is slow but not easily stopped by a stall. They usually fall to a deck that hits very fast and hard but can sometimes last long enough against defensive decks to pull off their win condition in time. This pretty much describes Breaks. I'm not really sure the distinction between Combos and Ramps is necessary as they are just separations of a more general deck type.

Aggro-Control and Mid-range both sound like Domins, but I don't really see how they are different outside of your examples. Elaborate further, please.
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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477868#msg477868
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2012, 03:00:09 am »
I can't believe no one said Shard of Serendipity for being all three! :D

Offline pikachufan2164

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Re: Rush, Stall, Break - The Hidden Rock-Paper-Scissors Game Within Elements https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=38055.msg477871#msg477871
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2012, 03:23:31 am »
I think this is a good definition, but I have a couple comments. In my opinion, Combos and Ramps both have a similar job. Their damage is slow but not easily stopped by a stall. They usually fall to a deck that hits very fast and hard but can sometimes last long enough against defensive decks to pull off their win condition in time. This pretty much describes Breaks. I'm not really sure the distinction between Combos and Ramps is necessary as they are just separations of a more general deck type.

Aggro-Control and Mid-range both sound like Domins, but I don't really see how they are different outside of your examples. Elaborate further, please.
Combo pretty much must win in one execution of its win condition due to the lack of extra combo pieces (most of Instosis consists of extra draw power, and only enough key cards to do the combo once), while Ramp has extras lying around and can finish the job in multiple combos (Ghostal will generally pack ~2 each of Ghosts and Fractals, for example).

Aggro-Control is heavier on the rush component with lower-cost creatures and just enough CC to win damage races, while Mid-Range is heavier on the CC to survive the early game and have harder-to-kill creatures.

I can't believe no one said Shard of Serendipity for being all three! :D
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