Rare rights (rants)

[Boingo]

The problem of impatient players (newbs or otherwise) has a simple answer: none.  In the age of entitlement, you cannot provide an explanation of why they cannot have everything they want right now that will satisfy them.  If they don't enjoy playing the game, they will burn out or try other things.  If they find enjoyment in the game, and this is likely something a little different for each person, then that enjoyment will answer why they keep playing despite not having everything right now.

When I look back at all the things that have changed since I started playing that make it easier to play/advance more quickly, it's pretty incredible.  For example when I started, if you wanted a rare card like Miracle, you had to to beat some decks with Miracle in it and just hope and pray they would turn up on spins.  Eventually the T50 system softened that issue significantly but the remainder of the developer-led changes have really brought the difficulty of advancing down a few pegs.

1.  The Oracle
     a.  Free card every time from Oracle
     b.  Free coin every time from Oracle
     c.   Free preview of next FG from Oracle
2.  The Arena
     a. Free coin just for taking the time to construct a deck and letting someone else lose against it.  Even better, you don't even need to be on at the time
     b. Bonus Arena spins for rares
     c.  Crazy cash rewards against decks of all stripes
3.  The Trainer:  the ultimate "try it before you buy it" deal.
4.  Changing mark for free.  Yes, there was a time it cost 100 just to change marks.  It really put a damper on a new player's budget just to try new decks

So maybe it makes me old and crusty to have seen all these changes, but I still like the game and I still play it.  Gripers gonna gripe, newbies gonna newb.  Keep your chin up and have some fun.  It's a game after all.

[furballdn]

I disagree. You can convert many newbs by letting them experience and enjoy the game. If all you do is tell them how to get badges or finish the quests, they'll be gone almost immediately. I think a few things would help attract more players though.
New cards for new strategies
A less steep learning curve

With the current cards we have now, and the slow rate that they come out, we can only work on the learning curve and teaching newer players to enjoy the game. I will repeat what I said earlier, when newbs ask for help, teach them how to play, now what to play. Don't just hand them that classic mono rush on a platter for them. Work together with them to develop their strategies so that they actually feel the fun of creation and experimentation.

[Drake_XIV]

With the current cards we have now, and the slow rate that they come out, we can only work on the learning curve and teaching newer players to enjoy the game. I will repeat what I said earlier, when newbs ask for help, teach them how to play, not what to play. Don't just hand them that classic mono rush on a platter for them. Work together with them to develop their strategies so that they actually feel the fun of creation and experimentation.

I agree with this.  Problem is how to actually do this effectively and put them in contact?  New players are probably more likely to hit the Kong chats to come here.  And what if they do, what is an effective way of teaching new players?  The dead Mentor system?

[memimemi]

With the current cards we have now, and the slow rate that they come out, we can only work on the learning curve and teaching newer players to enjoy the game. I will repeat what I said earlier, when newbs ask for help, teach them how to play, not what to play. Don't just hand them that classic mono rush on a platter for them. Work together with them to develop their strategies so that they actually feel the fun of creation and experimentation.

I agree with this.  Problem is how to actually do this effectively and put them in contact?  New players are probably more likely to hit the Kong chats to come here.  And what if they do, what is an effective way of teaching new players?  The dead Mentor system?

A new PvP, without the time/turn restriction.  Possibly with openly visible hands on both sides, so that everyone can see what's being discussed.  Use it on a one-by-one basis, with a vet walking through playstyles with a newb; every now and then (daily? weekly? depends on interest) have a detailed instructor's match, with newbs in spectator mode, with each instructor giving detailed explanations of each turn they play.

AFAIK, this would be a reasonably easy solution to implement, and would allow for some proper instruction, with visual aids.

[Drake_XIV]

But that'd take time.  What about video tutorials?  Anyone willing to teach via hypercam?

[furballdn]

Personally, I feel that what you guys are proposing is overly complicated. All you really need to "tutor" a newbie is to sit down with him for a few minutes, examine his deck, point out its flaws and strengths, suggest how to mod it a bit, and go from there. I'm not a fan of video tutorials and hypercam unless they're personal and aimed at one person. Just a few minutes in a chat with a 1:1 would be fine. Even if it's a different mentor each time. If you're an experienced vet and a newb pops into chat, just take a few minutes, answer his questions, and help him.

That's what I say, but a lot of new players are arrogant, rude, and can't spell >_>

[Drake_XIV]

True.  Half of my proposals are currently coming from a sleep-deprived mind.  But the video idea was not meant for actual playing, but as to explain certain events.  Even in words, there are some items that need explaining, like Arena stats, rare spins, or how Shard Golem works.  Just minute details as opposed to individual deck analysis.  I personally would rather listen to a tutorial than read a wiki on these topics.

[memimemi]

Personally, I feel that what you guys are proposing is overly complicated. All you really need to "tutor" a newbie is to sit down with him for a few minutes, examine his deck, point out its flaws and strengths, suggest how to mod it a bit, and go from there. I'm not a fan of video tutorials and hypercam unless they're personal and aimed at one person. Just a few minutes in a chat with a 1:1 would be fine. Even if it's a different mentor each time. If you're an experienced vet and a newb pops into chat, just take a few minutes, answer his questions, and help him.

For sure, this is truth.  However, I think that having 1-on-1 sessions in a PvP format (PwP - Player with player?), would allow for a much more detailed analysis of how and why a deck works or doesn't work, on a play-by-play basis - without the added distractions that chat brings.  It's like learning to play almost any card game - a sit-down with an experienced player, with both players' hands visible, gives a chance to explain not only which cards belong (or don't) in a deck, but also a chance to directly show why and how they work.  I imagine a new PvP/Sandbox format - multipurposed to not only allow for tutorials, but also to test out ideas from CI&A, to swap one card for another in mid-game (for example, to show the relative situational benefits of Otyugh vs. Maxwell's Demon, by swapping one for the other on board), to set play parameters (for example, to show your trainer the exact situation your last match was in, just before you lost), and whatever else.

A few points:

a) The Trainer is already a thing.  So, adding/altering a player's access to various cards and upgrades, in a limited environment, is doable.
b) PvP 3 is already a thing.  So, having deliberate match-ups, negotiated in chat (or by schedule), between trainers and pupils, is doable.
c) Spectator Mode is already a thing.  So, a lecturer/assistant, with observing pupils (like any large college class), explaining their game as they go, is doable.

I envision an E:tG PvP with a simple "Sandbox mode" box to check before play.  I'm not sure how complex that would be from a coding perspective, but conceptually I can't see how it would be any more complex than what we have now.  If anything, I think it would simplify matters some: having scheduled demonstration games would allow for the maximum number of new players to observe a single game, saving instructors the time and effort required to continually answer the same questions in chat, over and over again.  Not to mention the planning that War teams could do in such a space.

I propose that, as part of the title "Master of (element)," one of the responsibilities be being availible to instruct newbs, on a semi-regular (bi-weekly?  monthly? whatevs) basis - pointing out the strengths, weaknesses, and internal synergies, in that element's domain.

Anyways, it doesn't seem too complex to me - however, a caveat: it's very, very late, and I haven't slept.  Chances are, I'm missing something obvious.

edit: spelling error. *Yawn*

[bripod]

c) Spectator Mode is already a thing.  So, a lecturer/assistant, with observing pupils (like any large college class), explaining their game as they go, is doable.

Spectator mode is so borked that I can only see it leading to confusion...

[Trickster122]

I'm not terribly experienced in games such as Elements, but I am a fairly avid gamer and one thing that I see which differs Elements is the fact that there isn't much skill involved in grinding. You grab a deck someone has conveniently made available on the forums and you go in; if you can play the deck even half-decently then chances are you'll be playing it to nearly it's maximal capacity. Only rather large blunders will hurt the performance of most decks.

Compared to other games, where your skill level is actually tested to a degree while grinding, it feels dull. If I go into a boss fight(FG equivalent) on an MMORPG even if I have a guide(Pre-assembled deck), I still have to be able to do what is in the guide in a limited amount of time while not getting my posterior so graciously handed to me by a difficult opponent. In Elements, it's just literally playing it rather simply, grab deck, play cards, profit. If there was some skill involved other than going to the forums and finding a deck, I'd enjoy grinding a lot more than I do now.

As it stands, it seems grinding just takes time and luck. Since there's little skill involved, it doesn't really feel to me like I'm earning rares; all I'm doing is stomping Bronze with a fully upped deck and hoping it spits out a rare. I started playing Elements from Kongregate and I'll blatantly admit I just wanted Badges, but Elements entranced me and I continued to play. I eventually came to this site after I forgot my Kongregate password and started playing here. I remember T50(Which isn't that old to some Veterans I guess) and such; without the forums I was building decks on my own and every victory I achieved felt GOOD. It felt like I came up with something(Even if already exists) on my own.

Deck building seems to be where the majority of the skill in Elements comes out, and with the forums removing this with great deck posts all grinding really boils down to is time/luck. I never felt like I was entitled to rares, but when I earned my first Eternity from the quest with only self built decks it felt a lot better than the rares I earn today by farming the Arena. I know it's hard to incorporate skill into something other than deck building, but that's personally why I think newbs feel like they are 'entitled' to rares; the grinding is just time based and there's no way to shorten it by any long amount of time through actual skill if you use the forums.

I'm sorry if my opinion is misinformed, but this is just the perspective I see. If the forums didn't exist Elements would've been a lot more fun for me; I know that I can just not go in the forums and not take decks, but it's quite tempting to take them once you know they exist. It's similar to using an overpowered gear of equipment in a game; it's not really wrong, but it drops the amount of skill required and it's VERY tempting to do.

[ElementalDearWatson]

Deck building seems to be where the majority of the skill in Elements comes out, and with the forums removing this with great deck posts all grinding really boils down to is time/luck. I never felt like I was entitled to rares, but when I earned my first Eternity from the quest with only self built decks it felt a lot better than the rares I earn today by farming the Arena. I know it's hard to incorporate skill into something other than deck building, but that's personally why I think newbs feel like they are 'entitled' to rares; the grinding is just time based and there's no way to shorten it by any long amount of time through actual skill if you use the forums.

I think it's not just that, but that deck building is, ultimately, a small part of the game.  Once you've built a deck, the main part of it is still playing that deck.  It's not like you build a deck for every match you play.

And it's not like deck building is a skill that's open to everyone.  A complete newb simply doesn't have the to buy cards.  And all but the most experienced players are unlikely to have all the cards they need Upped, so either have to grind to Up all the relevant cards or play an Unupped deck - which won't be as effective as the Unupped version.

Add in that a lot of the decks you'll face, particularly in the Arena, are entirely predictable and one of 3 or 4 basic templates, and it can be frustrating.

[OldTrees]

Deck building seems to be where the majority of the skill in Elements comes out, and with the forums removing this with great deck posts all grinding really boils down to is time/luck. I never felt like I was entitled to rares, but when I earned my first Eternity from the quest with only self built decks it felt a lot better than the rares I earn today by farming the Arena. I know it's hard to incorporate skill into something other than deck building, but that's personally why I think newbs feel like they are 'entitled' to rares; the grinding is just time based and there's no way to shorten it by any long amount of time through actual skill if you use the forums.

I think it's not just that, but that deck building is, ultimately, a small part of the game.  Once you've built a deck, the main part of it is still playing that deck.  It's not like you build a deck for every match you play.

And it's not like deck building is a skill that's open to everyone.  A complete newb simply doesn't have the to buy cards.  And all but the most experienced players are unlikely to have all the cards they need Upped, so either have to grind to Up all the relevant cards or play an Unupped deck - which won't be as effective as the Unupped version.

Add in that a lot of the decks you'll face, particularly in the Arena, are entirely predictable and one of 3 or 4 basic templates, and it can be frustrating.

I have to disagree. Elements the Game does have a very large emphasis on deckbuilding. If deckbuilding were a larger factor than playing skill then one would expect famous decks that were fine tuned to defeating opponents. If deckbuilding were a smaller factor then we would see little change in win ratio when decks were changed.

How many famous decks can you name? Does your win ratio with them resemble your win ratio with a starter deck?

EtG is 80% deckbuilding skill (including borrowed skill) and only 20% in game tactics.
Honestly I am being generous on the in game tactics side.