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Malduk

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Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90018#msg90018
« on: June 13, 2010, 04:46:29 am »
Forgive me for my stupid title, I just cant believe the hype about Quantum Pillars being the most used card, and insanely flawed interpretation of statistical data and calls for nerf.
I'm referring, of course, to this chart:
Same chart suggests that  :life pillars are used 4,6 times more than  :light pillars. Does that mean that  :life pillars are more powerful than  :light ones and in need of nerf? That is hilarious, especially considering there is a creature that converts as many  :light quanta to  :life thus reducing the need of  :life pillars, and increasing the need for  :light pillars. Funny.

Statistics are good for nothing if you dont know how to interpret them. And that created another funny conclusion: overwhelming usage of certain type of pillars makes them overpowered! Why is this funny? Because, if you need MORE pillars of certain type in your deck to accomplish the same thing that deck with LESS pillars of another type would, that doesnt say your pillars are in need of a nerf, it means they are in need of a buff!
I know its kinda counter intuitive at first glance, but give yourself a minute and think about that.

That last conclusion in yellow is actually not true in this game as all pillars produce the same, save for quantum pillars which produce effectively 1/4th of what mono deck pillars produce during the opening turns of the game.

So, if conclusions that high usage = overpowered is false, and high usage = underpowered is false, what does the chart tells us? Absolutely nothing about certain pillars being in need of nerf or buff. Easy proof of that is the example of light and life pillars I made earlier.

It is absolutely perfectly NORMAL for quantum pillars to be used 10, even 50 times more than any other pillars simply because there are more possible rainbow decks than any other type of decks that use elements pillars.
And when you add the fact that Scaredgirls rainbow used to be THE ultimate FG killer deck, AND that Puppychows postnerf rainbow deck is widely spread, AND the popularity of speed rainbow decks, AND the fact that number of cards per element is extremely low thus making rainbow pretty attractive option, I wonder how on earth could you possibly come to conclusion that Quantum Pillars are to blame here?

Huge time rainbows were great due to the sundial mostly. Now, they are just slow. Puppychows rainbow, and speed rainbow actually heavily rely on Supernovas.

Which brings me to... Why Quantum pillars are actually not that great:

Supernovas bring 22 evenly distributed quanta at the very same turn they are played. Quantum Tower needs whooping 7 turns to accomplish this, and could leave you (and always will according to Murphy) with low quanta count on the very element you need at the moment.

Cremation needs something to cremate, but brings fire quanta super fast, with some leftovers in other elements to play with. Fastest decks are created with novas and cremations.

Pillars from certain elements brings you 100% usable quanta. Quantum pillars do generate 3 times as more quanta, but that quanta is dispersed to TWELVE elements.

Out of those options, pair of novas are actually the most powerful quanta generators in the game, and are the reason why rainbows are so effective. Not quantum pillars. Rainbows that rely only on quantum pillars to produce quanta are so slow its not even funny. So BUFF QUANTUM PILLARS, or on a more serious note, please dont make conclusions from stats that say nothing about what you're trying to conclude.



---
p.s. On the side note, some pretty good informations could be extracted from that chart. There are few cards screaming imbalance but thats not the topic of this thead.

dragonhuman

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90022#msg90022
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2010, 04:58:00 am »
well the thing is quantum towers are much more reliable in a rainbow deck than having multiple towers

ie 12 quantum towers are better than 12 towers of each kind

but even then some people (including me) feel that quantum towers are overpowered due to the sheer amount of quantum they can generate provided you get what you can use

Offline yaladilae

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90028#msg90028
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 05:01:46 am »
Relic upped has 3, i win!!!!!

Hope has 0?!?!?! I think the chats are old

And purify has 200, I have yet to seen it played...

mogv

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90036#msg90036
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2010, 05:14:59 am »
Maybe theres more quantum pillars because theyre more POPULAR as opposed to them being UNDEPOWERED. You're saying that they,re used so much because they're less effective? Then why whould anyone in their right mind choose quantum pillars as opossed to mono pillars.

Malduk

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90041#msg90041
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2010, 05:26:14 am »
Maybe theres more quantum pillars because theyre more POPULAR as opposed to them being UNDEPOWERED. You're saying that they,re used so much because they're less effective? Then why whould anyone in their right mind choose quantum pillars as opossed to mono pillars.
And then, just MAYBE you didnt read my post all that well.

Cancerplus

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90044#msg90044
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2010, 05:30:07 am »
I completely read and understand what your trying to say Malduk but the strength of the quantum tower is not that it generates 3 quanta opposed to 1 per turn, it's that it gives the player access to all sorts of control that most mono decks don't have.

For example a  :life deck is really fast but has no defense against permanents. If they DID decide to do duo in order to include that extra element of control they would have to sacrifice one of their big strengths... the speed.

Quantum pillars can use every single kind of control. "But it's slow to start!" you say? Well that isn't a problem because they also have access to every kind of stall in the game.

Having said all that I agree that quantum towers should not be nerfed. Instead I think that more elements need to have some sort of permanent control to even the playing field even if it isn't as instant as Explosion or Steal.

Malduk

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90050#msg90050
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2010, 05:42:57 am »
I completely read and understand what your trying to say Malduk but the strength of the quantum tower is not that it generates 3 quanta opposed to 1 per turn, it's that it gives the player access to all sorts of control that most mono decks don't have.

For example a  :life deck is really fast but has no defense against permanents. If they DID decide to do duo in order to include that extra element of control they would have to sacrifice one of their big strengths... the speed.

Quantum pillars can use every single kind of control. "But it's slow to start!" you say? Well that isn't a problem because they also have access to every kind of stall in the game.

Having said all that I agree that quantum towers should not be nerfed. Instead I think that more elements need to have some sort of permanent control to even the playing field even if it isn't as instant as Explosion or Steal.
Well my good man, we're actually thinking the same, but pointing fingers at different things.
Quantum pillars are not overpowered or to be blamed here. Problem are limited options with mono/duo decks due to low card count. This problem makes rainbows more attractive option, and rainbow deck will not be fueled with :life or :death pillars, but with quantum pillars and novas. You're not taking quantum pillars because they are oh so mighty, you're taking them because you're using rainbow deck.

Saying that quantum pillars are what makes rainbow powerful is like saying that fire pillars are whats making fire rush powerful. Sorry for over simplicity in this statement.

PuppyChow

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90051#msg90051
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2010, 05:43:26 am »
I approve of this topic. What you're trying to prove, I think, is that quantum pillars shouldn't be nerfed, and that the real culprit is novas and other cards. I don't *think* you're really trying to say quantum pillars should be improved. You just took that stance to say that at the very least they shouldn't be nerfed, right?

Which I agree with.

Malduk

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90056#msg90056
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2010, 05:53:45 am »
I approve of this topic. What you're trying to prove, I think, is that quantum pillars shouldn't be nerfed, and that the real culprit is novas and other cards. I don't *think* you're really trying to say quantum pillars should be improved. You just took that stance to say that at the very least they shouldn't be nerfed, right?

Which I agree with.
And here I thought I managed to hide my true intentions. ;)

Yes, of course I dont think Quantum pillars are in need of a buff. I just wanted to point out how people are misinterpreting those stats to find an easy scapegoat to blame for spread of rainbow decks.
Quantum pillars are good at its current form. Bring you sweet joy when they randomize what you need, and make you smash things when you wait for 1 quanta of specific type for several turns.

Cancerplus

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg90061#msg90061
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2010, 06:03:34 am »
the real culprit is novas and other cards
If your talking about novas and cremations okay but if you are suggesting that supernova be nerfed then... many of my non quantum tower using decks will suffer as well!

Problem are limited options with mono/duo decks due to low card count.
Completely agree! ZANZ NEEDS TO MAKE MOAR CARDS NAO!

Offline Xinef

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg91677#msg91677
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2010, 09:38:02 pm »
This thread gave me an idea for a new card:

Murphy's Law
permanent

Effect: RNG hates your opponent



This would be better against rainbows (and entropy, fate eggs, permafrosts and any other random effect).
May the force of the D4HK side be with U ^_^
:time samurai

Malduk

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Re: Quantum Pillars are underpowered! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7998.msg91712#msg91712
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2010, 09:59:42 pm »
@Xinef, that card is full of win.

@ScaredGirl and moving of this topic: Sorry if I missed subforum, but this thread is not really a suggestion or feedback. I'm not really suggesting to buff Quantum pillars, I'm just discussing overreaction of community to stat chart, with no real goal other than trying to get people to think before they start yelling "wolf wolf".
But OK, I dont mind it being in either subforum.

 

blarg: