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Offline jmdt

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg241505#msg241505
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2011, 07:18:00 am »
If you removed grinding, the number of folk plaing the game would drastically decrease.  Grinding for the next deck is part of what keeps people comming back.

Offline xdude

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg241535#msg241535
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2011, 09:11:30 am »
Well, jmdt and RootRanger kind of covered all the off-topic matters I was going to comment on, so...

What I'd change to the game:
  • Game Balance:
    • Give Time a middle attacker and some weak healing
    • Give Light some CC
    • Buff Gravity unupped a little
  • Buff the AI5's and the Fake Gods, increase the AI5 rewards to a little smaller than what FG rewards are now, make FG rewards way higher (yet hard-to-impossible to farm)
  • T-500
I'll add more as I think of it.
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Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg241548#msg241548
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2011, 10:13:03 am »
This is game comes shockingly close to giving free access to all cards compared to most. It definitely does not need more free access. The ability to accumulate, to collect, to improve ... well, besides being essential aspects of successful long-term-play video games, these are inherent aspects of card games in general.

In fact the real grinding problems people have with this game come from the OPPOSITE of what you think the problem is. Having it take a lot of time and effort to buy only marginal upgrades (since most upped versions of cards only improve the card slightly), while not really having rares that are less-known or hard to get in a way that's related to the grinding process itself. Nymphs don't count towards this measure because they are only obtainable through random luck; and rare weapons are somewhat freely available from Top-50 farming ... and there are only 12 of them. (And 3 other rare cards).

A version of elements with many more rares that can only be won by beating certain AI opponents, or that involve more quests, etc, are aspects that would improve the game. Of course it is very hard to make structural changes to a game after its launch and once there is a playing community, so the question is framed in the correct way: How would you REINVENT the game. Of course one could not make many framework-level changes now, but one thing I would do would be to completely alter the access to cards, perhaps not dissimilarly to the ideas put forth in the first suggestion with varying rarities. Trading between accounts and other features would also be great, although of course the system would have to be designed cleverly to avoid abuse.

As for game balance itself, Elements really shines. There is really nothing whatsoever that "needs" to be done on that score. Perhaps in a total redesign I would change the quanta system ever so slightly because quanta generation is really a sticking point in the game ... but on the other hand there is a natural solution to that which comes with the expansion of the game and new cards. By definition more card choices means a wider range of card costs and more options for cheap decks, as well as new means of gathering quanta in the first place.

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg241852#msg241852
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2011, 08:22:51 pm »
This is game comes shockingly close to giving free access to all cards compared to most. It definitely does not need more free access. The ability to accumulate, to collect, to improve ... well, besides being essential aspects of successful long-term-play video games, these are inherent aspects of card games in general.

If your goal is to make Elements comparable to all the other card games out there, then I see your line of reasoning. 

Personally, one of my favorite things about the game was that - until recently, it seems - strategy, clever play, and luck were emphasized in Elements. Now, emphasis is clearly on accumulating so many powerful cards that only another rediculously powerful deck can compete with yours.  The victory goes to the person who has the most, most-powerful cards - cards which must be gained almost entirely by grinding.  It's all about increasing your grind level instead of your creativity, cleverness, and thoughtfulness with the game.

If the emphasis is on grinding, then it's time for me to reframe my thoughts about Elements.  World Of Warcraft is about grinding.  There, they make no illusion of a fair playing field.  You are primarily rewarded for doing often mindless, boring tasks by receiving a character improvement. Strategy is in the back seat.  There is no chance for even the cleverest newer player to defeat someone who has played for years. Their 'Grind Level' is OVER 9000!

If strategy matters at all here:

Require less wasted money for changing deck strategy.
Advertise the trainer, and allow PvP in it. 
Restructure the game so wins and losses actually mean something besides a slight adjustment in required grind-time until next upgrade. 
Even-out basic vs. upgraded cards so their powers are more comparable.  Make rare cards more 'different' than 'better'.


EDIT: Typos and grammar

Offline Raptor6789

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg241908#msg241908
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2011, 09:38:51 pm »
Jmdt makes a point about players coming back because of grinding, but many more quit just because it takes so long for them to build a good fully upped deck.

i do believe we should have pvp in the trainer, but only with other people in the trainer. and no extra starting quanta.

and i think we should have a more... complex pvp system. one that automatically pairs you up with someone of the same skill level. after all, someone with a half upped deck facing a fully upped deck will probably get crushed, and there is no 'in-between' from pvp1 to pvp2.

@ xdude
this topic is about completely re-inventing the game, not just changing it.

Offline Daytripper

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg241942#msg241942
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2011, 10:07:38 pm »
There is a problem with the grinding. Or rather with the upped cards. You spend a lot of time to hunt for those uppeds, maybe to find you need standards and standard rares for a tournament.

You can safely remove the upped cards from the game, maybe make the normal cards a bit more expensive. That or you make the upped cards way less expensive. There is too heavy an emphasis on the upped cards and not on playing the game.

The heart of the game ought to be playing other people, and not the AI. However, I don't see this being motivated as PvP does not give many rewards. The tournaments would be an exception, but again, that is not so easy. The game and the forum are completely isolated entities. You could play this game for years not knowing anything. Then the tournaments have requirements and difficult procedures. I've been looking at it again today, and I can't say I know how those events would go based on the information. And, not once do you receive a notification an event is coming. You'd really have to check the right parts of the forum regularly. In other words, the barrier to get to that what should be the backbone of the game, is insanely high.

I am not a programmer, but I have seen game sites. I'd make it more like those sites. Integrate tournament and game. Minimize AI play. You simply log in and play PVP. Sign up for tournaments in the game. receive notifications. Process should be easy. I've seen my share of tournaments. It isn't as hard as this. 



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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg242005#msg242005
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2011, 11:22:19 pm »
My own situation is relevant to this discussion.

I have played nearly 5,000 games with my main account.  Probably all save 50 or so of these were vs. AI opponents.  That's mainly due to the buggy PvP system, length of PvP games vs. length of AI games, and reward balance. 

At one point - probably after playing for a year or so - I had a fully upgraded deck that I loved. Then, one day new cards were released which exposed (or created) a huge weakness for my beloved deck.  I had to change strategies. 

The first problem I encountered was that, since I had a deck that was working really well, and was trying to fully upgrade it, I had been selling most of my rare cards.  So there were many strategies I would have liked to employ, but simply had sold or never acquired the cards.

The next problem was that the strategy I did believe I could implement was going to require a different mark (which at that time still cost coins to change), and an entire compliment of about 35 upgraded cards.  That is a cost of about 55,000 coins (if you include the cost of the new cards).  This was not even a complete overhaul of my deck - luckily, I was able to work several of the upped cards I had into my new strategy.

I estimate the recovery cost 150+ hours of grinding lvl3 and T50 - the only opponents a semi-upped deck can regularly beat.  My only alternative was to mortgage my entire deck so I could afford to build one of the pre-fab grind decks.

This is my main gripe.  I am not a hardcore 10-hr a day player like some of you, but I have been playing very regularly - sometimes for hours a day - almost since day one, and this is the situation I find myself in.  Imagine a more casual player's predicament.


Offline Sir Valimont

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg242098#msg242098
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2011, 01:29:34 am »
Personally, one of my favorite things about the game was that - until recently, it seems - strategy, clever play, and luck were emphasized in Elements. Now, emphasis is clearly on accumulating so many powerful cards that only another rediculously powerful deck can compete with yours.  The victory goes to the person who has the most, most-powerful cards - cards which must be gained almost entirely by grinding.  It's all about increasing your grind level instead of your creativity, cleverness, and thoughtfulness with the game.
I truly don't meant to be rude, but it sounds like you're playing a different game from the rest of us. What you're describing is absolutely NOT the case in Elements. Which PvP events are you participating in where you think people are beating you because their cards are better? Which cards are you talking about anyway? If it's upped cards, then most PvP events don't allow them; if it's nymphs you are talking about three or four players with enough of them to really create a standout advantage ... and by practice those players generally don't do that anyway.

I think what's happening is you are adopting a relative viewpoint. You have certain expectations based on the status quo of Elements -- which is that it's a strategy-focused game to the extreme, etc. And that's an accurate view. However, a slight shift in a different direction does not appropriately justify a statement that this game has become "all about grinding" ... and it is most fair to get better perspective on the issue by comparing the game with other games. Compared to most other games, this game is close to zero percent "about grinding" when it comes to being a skilled PvPer.


Imagine a more casual player's predicament.
I think the trouble is that you are considering yourself "in a predicament" in the first place. Let me phrase that perhaps more clearly: Being in a predicament within the confines of the game -- as in, you need to adjust your deck strategy -- is part of the game. Being in a predicament like that the game isn't fun anymore because it has stagnated, is a predicament on the design level and is somewhat exterior to the game. The two are very different, but you are considering an aspect of the first party to the second.

The relevance of what I'm saying is that wanting something to be easier for you within the game is not really a justification for altering the structure of the game. It is just a difficulty within the game itself. You might argue that it's a difficulty that makes things "not fun" but at the end of the day it's your definition of what is fun that is the variable. By many, many gamers' standards the dynamic nature of a changing game environment, requiring strategy adjustments, is precisely what makes a game fun!

Anyway, those are just my two cents. I do think your concerns are perfectly valid :) and hopefully there are still applications for your older upped deck. But you should consider that if you invested a considerable amount of time and effort into building the deck in the first place (which seems probable), then there's really no external logical reason why it should forever remain the best deck and therefore your deckbuilding days are forever over. On the contrary, I would consider that a form of stagnation of the game and quite a bad thing. Luckily the structure of the game is such that instead of deep sixing the deck altogether (which nonetheless is a time-saving option if you prefer it), you can keep it and build a new deck, ending up with two.

I hope my comments were helpful and didn't come across as antagonistic. I think your points are valid but I think it could be helpful if you try to see the situation from a slightly different viewpoint. :)

Offline jmdt

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg242132#msg242132
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2011, 02:31:25 am »
My FIRST DAY playing elements, I had 4 decks complete unupped decks, yes 4.  I had the fire starter deck with several improvements, a mono aether deck, a fire fly queen plus hope deck, and a shrieker rush.

On that first day, I beat EVERY AI unupgraded. Yes, I beat a fg my first try using a hope/bond lock on a fg.

The first thing I did after playing my first few elements games was do a google search on elements to find the best way to play the game.  Thanks to this, I figured out what decent decks were, decent strategies, and the basic way to play the game.  The smart thing I did was not sell working deck ever so I could always go back to it.  After I got set on using the shrieker rush versus AI3 as my main mode of play, I never sold a card again until I had 6 giving myself a huge library of the cards from the get go.

Some people hate the AI/grinding aspect of the game, but I find it a great way to waste time while running experiments or trying to unwind at night.  The fact that the game has a PvP system is just icing on the cake for me.  For several months I never messed with PvP.  I never really played a PvP game until around the time I was talked into joining the first war.  I've now come to love PvP, but PvP isn't the be all end all part of the game some folk think it is.

Offline coinich

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg242197#msg242197
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2011, 04:09:18 am »
Not sure if anyone's said it yet, but moving the codebase from Flash to C++ or Java; something a bit more robust, easier to expand and maintain, and perhaps more formidable vs hackers.  Java could even still be used in a web client setting too without having to deal with offline programs.

That, and I still think that Elements needs more draw, possibly tweaked to benefit larger decks rather than small rushes.

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg242395#msg242395
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2011, 01:53:30 pm »
I agree that elements needs more draw.  If you want to play a control deck, you usually have to play time for the draw effects.  Since time lacks what is necessary to control a game, you must dip into another mark or two.  Finally, because playing more than two marks is very inconsistent without playing rainbow, most control decks are rainbow. 

I think solving this would be easy.  Making lots of new varying cards, including draw, would give players more creativity and possibilities.  I know cards are constantly being developed, but they aren't really made quick enough.  If I want to make an original deck, its nearly impossible to make a good one.  There simply isn't enough cards to support more than a few strong strategies. 

I know this would create a lot more cards to upgrade, and increase grinding, but that is why I play, personally, but I am interested in tournaments.  Perhaps lowering upgrade to 1000 electrum coins instead would help.  I definitely hate having to spend that much upgrading a pillar :(
I do recognize that if I were to play in tournaments my opinion might be quite different.

Offline Marvaddin

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Re: If You Could Reinvent Elements the Game https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=18903.msg242509#msg242509
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2011, 05:31:20 pm »
Personally, one of my favorite things about the game was that - until recently, it seems - strategy, clever play, and luck were emphasized in Elements. Now, emphasis is clearly on accumulating so many powerful cards that only another rediculously powerful deck can compete with yours.  The victory goes to the person who has the most, most-powerful cards - cards which must be gained almost entirely by grinding.  It's all about increasing your grind level instead of your creativity, cleverness, and thoughtfulness with the game.
I assume if that was true I would never lose to AI3, lol. There is still a lot of luck involved in the game, in all card game, in fact, because of draws.

But its clear a guy with a starter deck cant defeat a veteran with an upped deck, at least without great luck. Usually its fun when you play something at your level. Because of this, there are 7 levels of AI and 2 levels of PVP. Its normal to me that the game requires some effort before you can play the higher levels.

Bored about all rush decks? Why not create a deck to crush them? If you are so short in money after 5k games, looks like you did something wrong. I already have 3 upped decks and 107k in coins. This and a lot of cards (I just sell cards that I have 12+), so if I was in need I could get at least +50k from cards. My record is currently 5311-1089.

Rush decks are not OP. When they come with a perfect hand, maybe there is no way to stop them, but remember, there is no invincible deck. Add some healing and control (Eagle's Eye, for example) and most rush decks are toasted.

 

blarg: