Poll: Most Overpowered #2

[jmizzle7]

I guess people didn't really read my post about Congeal close enough. I said I was torn between Congeal and Supernova. What this means is that I am on the fence whether it is overpowered or not. I actually believe that Supernova is more powerful than Congeal, but has a balanced casting cost. I was merely providing an argument for Congeal, that it does not have a balanced casting cost for what it does. One quantum for four turns is a ton, and that is only one instance of the card, not counting Arctic Octopus.

[jmizzle7]

I personally don't think that Quantum Towers are overpowered at the moment. The fact that they produce random quanta balances out the fact that they produce three instead of the normal one. And given that they are pillars, they are vulnerable to any anti-pillar, anti-permanent strategy. If Zanzarino ever makes enough 'Other' cards to make an entire deck, the cost of those creatures/spells/permanents would have to be either astronomically high to counterbalance the sheer amount of quanta produced by QTs (thus making those cards almost impossible to play in a deck without QTs or nova/SN), or decrease the amount of random quanta produced to two instead of three.

[jmizzle7]

I understand, SG. I was merely making a claim for Congeal, and I understand exactly why it isn't overpowered, but I guess if playing the devil's advocate isn't allowed, then I'll just post what I really think, which is that Supernova, not Congeal, is overpowered. It allows for Rainbow decks to get a huge burst in quanta in order to play the cheap, effective cards.

Another argument can be said about Elite Otyugh. When Sundial came out, Zanzarino also changed Elite Otyugh from a 0/4 for three Gravity to 0/5 for four Gravity. I really don't know why he did this, as it's actually a much better creature this way, able to eat Silurian Dragons and Ulitharids with no help. Otyugh is one of the most powerful creatures in the game, and should be brought down to 0/4 for 3 quanta again (or even 4 quanta) probably.

[jmizzle7]

I'm merely putting an argument out there. You don't have to go on a crusade to convince me otherwise.

[jmizzle7]

Just wondering... You do realize that I was saying that Quantum Towers are not overpowered, atm, right?

[jmizzle7]

Of course it only works against the AI. It's stupid to assume that a player will only target your most expensive stuff every time. I was only explaining how priority works when the AI is targeting your permanents.

It's not exactly a flaw in the AI as before Sundial there were no other non-pillar permanents that cost zero to play. I'm explaining to you exactly how the AI decides what to target. If you have an unupped Sundial in play and a few towers and no other permanents, it will explode your Sundial every time. If you have an upped Sundial instead, it will target your towers. This is one good reason to run upped Sundials instead of regular Sundials.

Bonewall is only targeted before your other permanents because it costs more. Period. There has to be some sort of priority system in place with the AI, and that's what exists, so exploit away.

[jmizzle7]

Well, against the AI, upgraded Sundials are tied with your towers for the lowest priority. So as long as you have a tower in an earlier position, the opponent will target the towers instead of your upgraded Sundial. Of course, if you have any other permanents out, the AI will target that instead. This is why Bone Wall is so great. Because it has the highest casting cost among all your permanents, it protects all your permanents by drawing all permanent destruction to itself.

[jmizzle7]

Well, if you run upgraded Sundials, those Explosions will never target them if you played a Tower before, because they cost nothing.

[jmizzle7]

Just a note, immortality doesn't unfreeze a critter. It removes the frozen animation, but the creature still can't attack or use abilities until the freeze duration ends.

Are you sure?  I'm almost 100% sure it removes the frozen status.

It removes the visual aspect of the freeze status, not the status itself. Immaterial status means that the creature can't be damaged or targeted, but has no bearing on existing status ailments. Gravity Pull is the only kind of exception to this, as when you immortalize a creature with gravity pull already on it, the creature no longer has the Gravity Pull shield icon and doesn't take damage from incoming attacks. Of course, immaterial status doesn't prevent a creature with the Gravity Pull ability from using the ability, as it doesn't target. If an immaterial creature uses Gravity Pull, it will take damage from incoming attacks.

Immortality removes freeze. This is a fact.

Haha! You're funny. Just for the record, people, Immortality does not remove freeze. Ever. It removes the visual, and the frozen immaterial creature will remain frozen for the remaining duration of its frozen state.

[jmizzle7]

As long as Sundial and Hourglass are the only way to draw additional cards, I consider them both OP.  Drawing cards in a CCG is huge.. take two decks of relative power, whichever one is able to get more cards in play is probably going to win.  I'm in favour of limiting Hasten and making it a rather expensive ability, especially when it's reusable.

Another issue with reducing Sundial to 1 turn... wouldn't that just put Phase Shield back in the spotlight and everbody would be packing 6 of em into thier deck?  I really think there needs to be more ways to make permanents a little less.. permanent.

I don't think that will automatically put Phase Shield back in the spotlight. Sundial is cheap and can fit into any deck, regardless of what type of quanta it uses. Phase Shield is a pretty heavy Aether card, so it fits into fewer decks. In addition, Phase Shield takes up the shield slot, meaning you can't play it and Bone Wall at the same time, like you can with Sundial.

I understand what you mean about the hasten ability as a powerful ability, but I don't think it is overpowered. It is only as powerful as the cards that you will potentially draw from it. Sure, in a mirror match, he who draws his threats sooner wins more often, so drawing cards faster generates the raw card advantage to achieve a favorable board position. The big problem with card advantage right now in Elements is that the types of card advantage available to the players are limited because creatures cannot block and there are no forced discard effects. Pulverizer, Otyugh, Plague, Retrovirus, Rewind/Eternity, and Firestorm are the cards with at least 2-for-1 potential. This is why Pulverizer and Otyugh are also considered some of the most overpowered cards right now, because they are sources of renewable card advantage at a low cost.

[jmizzle7]

I understand, SG. I was merely making a claim for Congeal, and I understand exactly why it isn't overpowered, but I guess if playing the devil's advocate isn't allowed, then I'll just post what I really think, which is that Supernova, not Congeal, is overpowered. It allows for Rainbow decks to get a huge burst in quanta in order to play the cheap, effective cards.

You say you understand why Congeal isn't overpowered but still you..

• chose it as your #2 most overpowered card
• suggest that it should be nerfed to last only 2 and 3 turns

Um.. what?

I stated in my original post that Those were not in any particular order. Sundial was listed third, after Congeal. Obviously Sundial is way more powerful than Congeal. I was merely picking a card that has been complained about but hasn't gotten the attention that others (Sundial, Supernova, Quantum Towers) have gotten. The two and three turns suggestion was just a possible nerf should the need arise. The believe the other two, Pulverizer and Sundial, are overpowered and need some sort of tweak. Congeal isn't super overpowered, but is worthy of debate. I was offering one side of that debate.

[jmizzle7]

Removing hasten from Sundial is a bad idea imo. It's always a bad idea to nerf a card by taking one of its abilities away because you can achieve the same effect for example simply by upping the cost.

At the moment there are only two cards in this game that can draw cards (not enough) and I don't see any reason why we should remove the other one.

I would choose option 1 - make Sundial last only one turn. It's simple yet effective. It wouldn't by any means gimp the card, and I'm sure people would still use it in their rainbow decks. I know I would.

Shortening it to one turn probably is the better way to go, but I thought it would be fair to throw that idea out there as well.

EDIT: Also, if Sundial is shortened to only last one full turn instead of two, it would actually be stronger if the hasten ability were removed and replaced with the cantrip effect, because that way you could play it against decks with removal and still get the card draw out of it. Not a bad tradeoff for shortening the Stasis length, IMO.