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CB!

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10063#msg10063
« on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

Poison and upgrade prices.  Honestly.  Think about it.  6 deadly poisons+a couple of physalia activates and you've got 5 turns to live.  Unless you play light or life, you're screwed in short order.
That's why upgraded purify is colorless.  Buuuuut nobody wants to 'clog their deck up' with a card that's so situational.

You should have played the game before upgrades came out.  The only way to deal with poison then was to splash water.  Poison already got its nerf, IMO.

CB!

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10064#msg10064
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »
There are tons of ways to counter creatures, direct damage at least takes a while to build up & decking someone out takes a long time.  Poison damage on the other hand is inexpensive quanta wise, has very few counters and does not take a long time to kill someone.
Like Jmizzle said, purify kills a poison deck.  There have been many times where I've had 18-20 poison on someone, they kill all my poisoning creatures and purify.  There's nothing I can do at this point and have often decked out because there was no other way to do enough damage.

And there are a lot of ways to deal with poison other than purify.  Feral bond, boneyard, and firestorm is one.  Miracle is another.  They won't get rid of the poison effect, but they can sure manage it.  In my poison deck experience, if I can't win within the first 7-10 turns, I usually lose.

  • Pulverizer
  • Congeal
  • Sundial
I completely agree with Pulverizer.  The ability should at least cost 2, maybe even 3 gravity.

I disagree with congeal, although an unfreeze type card would be nice.  Maybe a card that would give immaterial status or something as Anubis can 'unfreeze' a creature by making it immortal.  Maybe it could work like Miracle or something (cost 8 aether and deplete?).

And I go back and forth with Sundial.  It wouldn't bother me if it stayed the same, and it would bother me if it got nerfed (although the 'completely different god deck'* would no longer work :()

*http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,887.msg9016#msg9016 (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,887.msg9016#msg9016)

cipher_nemo

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10065#msg10065
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

Interesting.

I wouldn't want any of these removed, but I feel we need some other cards in the next update to rival these cards' power.

Right now, we all know how valuable cards like Sundial, Nova/Super Nova, Electrum Hourglass, and Eternity are in a deck. In fact, they, along with Fallen Druid and Otyugh, are in almost every top 50 deck. This makes building a top deck for god farming or PvP sort of cookie-cutter in some sense since this combination, along with permanents like Bone Wall, Graveyard, and Feral Bond give a lock-in win at the end.

So, they're not really over-powered on their own, but they do need alternatives for variety to give us some fun building unique end-game decks (much like MTG, but without the brokenness of some combos). Still, I voted for Quantum Tower (not Pillar) and Sundial.

cipher_nemo

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10066#msg10066
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

I disagree with congeal, although an unfreeze type card would be nice.  Maybe a card that would give immaterial status or something as Anubis can 'unfreeze' a creature by making it immortal.  Maybe it could work like Miracle or something (cost 8 aether and deplete?).
Yup, it would be a nice addition and agree with you. I think the comment on Congeal being overpowered if grasping at straws for jmizzle7. There are plenty of more powerful things in Elements that no one runs Congeal anything in an end-game deck. And yes, making something immortal will remove it, so it's reversible. Same with gravity pull.

cipher_nemo

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10067#msg10067
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

Congeal - I'm actually torn between this and Supernova, but I figured I would provide an argument against Congeal instead of the usual "anti-rainbow" arguments everybody throws out there. Freeze is powerful, disabling a creature for three turns for an inexpensive one Water quantum. Congeal makes it four turns with no extra cost. Because of how fast matches are, those four turns can be long enough to effectively disable a single creature for nearly the entire match, or until the game is nearly won. And that's just one copy of the card, let alone how great it is as an ability on Arctic Octopus. I understand that freezing your opponent's creatures doesn't mean that you will win, but slows things down considerably so you can win much easier. My suggested fix is to make Freeze last two turns and Congeal last three turns.
While I agree with your points about Pulverizer and Sun Dial, I disagree about Congeal. It's only a problem in PvP, but not against the AI. Congeal is not overpowered against the AI or against us when the AI uses it. If my Annubis is congealed, I can easily wait out the 4 turns before continuing.

Now if Congeal were an ability instead of a spell card, I'd totally agree. But so far, I've only seen Freeze ability as a result of a creature mutation.

cipher_nemo

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10068#msg10068
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

Well, if you don't know how Congeal can be super powerful when used by the AI, then you haven't played against Scorpio enough.  ;)
I have played against Scorpio plenty of times and had each of my Annubis, Otyugh, and Fallen Druid congealed many times. Really, it's not a game killer at all. It's annoying, sure, but it's completely manageable.

In general, anything that delays in a CCG match against a deck that has its own lock for a sealed win isn't that big of a deal. Now if I was playing a fast Level 3 game, congeal might as well be devour. But sorry, I just don't agree with you for god farming that congeal is overpowered. I think it's just another part of the game that's pretty well balanced.

cipher_nemo

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10069#msg10069
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

Why on earth did you put cards, False God builds and upgrade prices in the same poll? How are we supposed to compare those?
Yeah, I noticed that too. I just opted to rate cards myself and ignore the false gods and upgrade price thrown into that poll.

cipher_nemo

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10070#msg10070
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »
Wait a minute...so something is judged whether or not it's overpowered on how it works vs. garbage AI rather than other players?
Most of the game is against the AI. PvP is broken until the next update due to "desynchronization" between clients. I've seen this first hand pitting one of my accounts against the other. It is described here: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,145.0.html (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,145.0.html)

So I pretty much don't bother with PvP because people can exploit this (ie: if you destroy one of their permanents with a mutated creature's ability, it never really dies... in fact, it becomes untargetable). Yeah, PvP is broken.

Demongod

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10071#msg10071
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

Poison and upgrade prices.  Honestly.  Think about it.  6 deadly poisons+a couple of physalia activates and you've got 5 turns to live.  Unless you play light or life, you're screwed in short order.

Demongod

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10072#msg10072
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

Wait a minute...so something is judged whether or not it's overpowered on how it works vs. garbage AI rather than other players?

Sundial: Destroy owns this.

Poison: Far more overpowered.  Either you pack hate which can screw you over against another deck in a close mirror, or you get destroyed in 5 turns.

Offline jmizzle7

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10073#msg10073
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

Well, if you don't know how Congeal can be super powerful when used by the AI, then you haven't played against Scorpio enough.  ;)

Offline jmizzle7

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Poll: Most Overpowered #2 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=1081.msg10074#msg10074
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:18 pm »

I'd imagine that when upgrades came out and poison cards became even more effective - that outwieghed the disadvantage of poison's one and only true counter card going colourless.
That's really not true. Before upgrades, Poison decks with water mark were quite good, although they were more of an attrition build than a speed build. With Bone Wall at 3 Death quanta, the poison deck could stuff the deck with six and call it a day. At the time, the best decks were Queen/Rustler with Owl Eye, Alaska rainbow (because of how ridiculous Nova was), Rev's Time/Earth, Death/Water Poison, and a few others. Poison could definitely hold its own with the best of them. Now, any deck can use upgraded Purify to counterbalance the increased speed and power of the Poison build. The problem that exists with Purify is that it is a killer card against a specific deck type, relegating it to a mere sideboard card in pvp. Because of this, I think the situation with Poison decks is quite balanced.

As for the poll question: I voted for... (in no particular order)
  • Pulverizer
  • Congeal
  • Sundial
Pulverizer - Okay, so Trident decreases the cost of Tsunami from three Earth to two Earth when upgraded to Poseidon. Eternity only decreases the casting cost from five to four Time (I happen to be quite thankful that the RT ability didn't get reduced, but that's another topic altogether). Pulverizer's casting cost is increased from three to four Earth, but its ability falls all the way to just one Gravity from three. This is by far the best upgrade on a permanent, and you don't even have to go far for Protect Artifact. I would totally be fine with it changing from one Gravity to two.

Congeal - I'm actually torn between this and Supernova, but I figured I would provide an argument against Congeal instead of the usual "anti-rainbow" arguments everybody throws out there. Freeze is powerful, disabling a creature for three turns for an inexpensive one Water quantum. Congeal makes it four turns with no extra cost. Because of how fast matches are, those four turns can be long enough to effectively disable a single creature for nearly the entire match, or until the game is nearly won. And that's just one copy of the card, let alone how great it is as an ability on Arctic Octopus. I understand that freezing your opponent's creatures doesn't mean that you will win, but slows things down considerably so you can win much easier. My suggested fix is to make Freeze last two turns and Congeal last three turns.

Sundial - I'm not going to explain this, as I and many others have offered many explanations for this in other threads. Possible fix would be to revert it back to the bugged version, or to make it last only one turn.

 

blarg: