Overpowered Cards etc.

[Demongod]

Sundial doesn't require any special strategy?  Yes it does.  You cannot run sundial in an aggro deck.  Period.  But then again considering light and time are not aggro colors, then that's that.  Furthermore, sundial has a limitation on it.  It's a light card.  Without light quanta, sundials are not that amazing.

Furthermore, you don't need to pack 6 explosions to counter sundial.  Know how many sundials you need to explode to win?

1.

Build up lethal damage before you attack.  Destroy sundial.  Win.  If an aggro deck cannot build up lethal damage, it has no right to call itself aggro.

[Demongod]

While Purify is obviously great against poison, it's not necessary and on its own doesn't constitute a win against Poison decks, or against Scorpio and/or Morte. Protect Artifact definitely makes the Seism matchup much easier, but why use such a situationally good card if you can win overwhelmingly without it?

The problem with Sundial is that it completely shuts down any aggro decks that can't destroy it. The fact that any deck can use it means that some archetypes have become a complete afterthought since Sundial came out, or new deck types have yet to be legitimized because they have no answer to Sundial. This is just plain wrong, as one card should not dictate the makeup of the entire Elements metagame.

In addition to the metagame problem, Sundial makes already controversial cards like Eternity and Bone Wall immensely better. Combined with Eternity, Sundial can turn a losing board position into a winnable one by slowing down your opponent's draw while hastening your own into the answers (or more Sundials) you need to win. Bone Wall's only weakness is its susceptibility to creature swarms. If you play Sundial while BW is in play, though, all of a sudden, you can keep your BW very much alive through multiple turns of eating through your opponent's creatures with Otyugh, or wait until you have enough quanta to cast Firestorm. The common link between all these situations is the inclusion of Sundial. Even if it only lasted one turn instead of two, it would still provide a big enough edge to control decks that it would require other decks to pack the hate or go down in flames.

Significantly, but not completely wrong.  You say sundial can be used by any deck, but this is only partially true.  Without light quanta, sundial is rather bad.  Yes, it delays damage, but what after that?  You're still back in the same situation you were a couple of turns ago.  Yes, bone wall/Otyugh are strong, or bone wall/firestorm.  Those also require a dual-color strategy, and dual-color simply isn't strong in this environment without mana fixing. 

Here's the thing--if a control deck will splash light for sundial's stall+draw, an aggro deck should respect that and splash fire for a couple of explosions.  You don't need to blow up every sundial.  Just enough to create an opportunity to punch through one shot of lethal damage.  It doesn't matter if you're dead next turn or whatever--just punch through lethal damage, that's it.  You have as cheap a card as you can possibly get without letting it be usable by every single color. 

USE IT.

[Demongod]

Significantly, but not completely wrong.  You say sundial can be used by any deck, but this is only partially true.  Without light quanta, sundial is rather bad.  Yes, it delays damage, but what after that?  You're still back in the same situation you were a couple of turns ago.  Yes, bone wall/Otyugh are strong, or bone wall/firestorm.  Those also require a dual-color strategy, and dual-color simply isn't strong in this environment without mana fixing.

You are missing the point. If you have a deck that has some issues getting set up in the early game but is absolutely great after a few turns, running some upped dials is great. Think of it as a free mini-Phase Shield, which it sort of is.

I never said that you had to use the hasten ability to make it worth your while, I said that any deck is capable of playing Sundial. Sure, some decks can actually use the hasten ability, but if all you need is something to stall for a couple of turns, just slap upped dials in the deck and you are fine. You still get two turns of setup (unless they destroy it), which, of course, means you get two turns to draw further into your deck and get set up. The overwhelming glut of decks with Sundial (because it is so inexpensive to play and unbelievably powerful) makes some measure of counter-Sundial strategy a must if you want your deck to be viable at all in the current metagame.

Here's the thing--if a control deck will splash light for sundial's stall+draw, an aggro deck should respect that and splash fire for a couple of explosions.

That's exactly my point. The mere fact that Sundial exists forces aggro decks to run Explosion (Steal doesn't work - it resets the timer) just to be able to win. Any card is too powerful if it single-handedly dictates the way the majority of viable deck types should be built.

The fact that you think Sundial's stall in PvP is powerful without its draw means I probably shouldn't waste time even replying to you, as you're that stupid.  But if you're complaining about stalling:

Phase Shield stalls for one more turn than sundial--and it's only one way.  While you can't hit the shielded player, his aether army very much can hit you.  And what happens when a mono-aether player drops a couple of elite phase dragons?  "I'm too good for explosion!"  And now I laugh at you as my untargetable dragons kill you.

Yet nobody whines about phase shield.

No, there are multiple cards that should, in any good aggro deck, force the running of explosions.  Half the shields in this game (probably more) make an aggro strategy at the least half as effective if not more.  Eagle Eye is tailor-made to stop aggro decks.

No--here's the real reason sundial is powerful:

Four cards, splashable, chaining.

Without the hasten ability, you will not get that chain running. 

[jmizzle7]

Nobody whines about Phase Shield being too powerful because it costs 5 Aether to cast it, although, if you were around before Sundial came out, lots of people actually did complain about Phase Shield because it's very good at effectively stopping creature decks that do not sport permanent removal. However, Phase Shield only fits in very large Time-mark rainbow decks or mono-Aether. Sundial is free (or costs one Time) and thus can be played by any deck. I already mentioned the similarities Sundial has to Phase Shield if you would have read my post a little closer.

I never said that the hasten was a negligible aspect of Sundial's strength. I was saying that the free cost makes it playable in practically every deck you ever make, totally killing some deck types (you can't even begin to justify splashing a third or fourth element for Explosion in Dive/PU, as you need a LOT of Aether and Air quanta). If you can use the hasten ability, it is just that much more powerful and ridiculous to play against. The fact that there have been debates on both Phase Shield and Electrum Hourglass as overpowered cards just shows that Sundial, as a hybrid of both for less cost than both, is a controversial card at best.

[jmizzle7]

While Purify is obviously great against poison, it's not necessary and on its own doesn't constitute a win against Poison decks, or against Scorpio and/or Morte. Protect Artifact definitely makes the Seism matchup much easier, but why use such a situationally good card if you can win overwhelmingly without it?

The problem with Sundial is that it completely shuts down any aggro decks that can't destroy it. The fact that any deck can use it means that some archetypes have become a complete afterthought since Sundial came out, or new deck types have yet to be legitimized because they have no answer to Sundial. This is just plain wrong, as one card should not dictate the makeup of the entire Elements metagame.

In addition to the metagame problem, Sundial makes already controversial cards like Eternity and Bone Wall immensely better. Combined with Eternity, Sundial can turn a losing board position into a winnable one by slowing down your opponent's draw while hastening your own into the answers (or more Sundials) you need to win. Bone Wall's only weakness is its susceptibility to creature swarms. If you play Sundial while BW is in play, though, all of a sudden, you can keep your BW very much alive through multiple turns of eating through your opponent's creatures with Otyugh, or wait until you have enough quanta to cast Firestorm. The common link between all these situations is the inclusion of Sundial. Even if it only lasted one turn instead of two, it would still provide a big enough edge to control decks that it would require other decks to pack the hate or go down in flames.

[jmizzle7]

Significantly, but not completely wrong.  You say sundial can be used by any deck, but this is only partially true.  Without light quanta, sundial is rather bad.  Yes, it delays damage, but what after that?  You're still back in the same situation you were a couple of turns ago.  Yes, bone wall/Otyugh are strong, or bone wall/firestorm.  Those also require a dual-color strategy, and dual-color simply isn't strong in this environment without mana fixing.

You are missing the point. If you have a deck that has some issues getting set up in the early game but is absolutely great after a few turns, running some upped dials is great. Think of it as a free mini-Phase Shield, which it sort of is.

I never said that you had to use the hasten ability to make it worth your while, I said that any deck is capable of playing Sundial. Sure, some decks can actually use the hasten ability, but if all you need is something to stall for a couple of turns, just slap upped dials in the deck and you are fine. You still get two turns of setup (unless they destroy it), which, of course, means you get two turns to draw further into your deck and get set up. The overwhelming glut of decks with Sundial (because it is so inexpensive to play and unbelievably powerful) makes some measure of counter-Sundial strategy a must if you want your deck to be viable at all in the current metagame.

Here's the thing--if a control deck will splash light for sundial's stall+draw, an aggro deck should respect that and splash fire for a couple of explosions.

That's exactly my point. The mere fact that Sundial exists forces aggro decks to run Explosion (Steal doesn't work - it resets the timer) just to be able to win. Any card is too powerful if it single-handedly dictates the way the majority of viable deck types should be built.

[plastiqe]

So as long as every deck has 1 explosion, Sundial is not overpowered.  Well, I'm glad we got that settled. (http://elementstheforum.smfforfree3.com/index.php/topic,1168.0/msg,11652.html)



Just curious, what was the Bonewall nerf?

[Tomsense76]

With Ensnaring Bridge and Moat you could still attack if you had the right type of critters.

No, you don't need Light Quantum for Sundials to be effective.
ex:
-You only have 1 Oty out and need to stall for time to start eating your opponents critters.
-You're missing 1 quantum to cast Rain of Fire, so you stall for a few rounds.
-You're opponent is about to kill you, or deck out. So you stall so your opponent decks out.

And that's just a few cases where I've used without actually activating Sundial...

And if you have enough damage on board to kill your opponent, chances are that Sundial wasn't going to help him anyway...

Speaking of MTG, does anyone remember White's "Circle of Protection"? For the cost of 1 mana you can negate damage from any 1 source of the color named on the card. So even if your opponent had 30 critters on board, for the cost of 30 mana you could negate all damage taken. But, there were three ways around this. 1) Either destroy artifact, or 2) Direct Life Loss, or 3) Play multi color decks/monsters.

Sundials?
Destroy (Grav/earth), Steal (Darkness), Fallen Druid to hopefully get either of those two abilities..., Direct Damage (Fire, Darkness, Death, Water)

Quantum towers?
Destroy, Trident, Steal, Pests

Someone said this earlier, I think, but every card really does have an opposing strategy. The big problem is, are you playing that strategy? Its akin to the people who were saying how hard Scorpio and Morte were, but still refused to put purify in their deck. Or how difficult Seism is, but don't have Protect Artifact. Sometimes you have to lose....

 

[X]

Phase dragons? Gravity shield. I don't even know why phase dragons had to be nerfed. With one card, most mono-aether strategies are kaput.

Phase shield can be stolen, stealing a sundial just resets the counter. Phase shield costs 5 aether quantums which limits its use to mono-aether, rainbow and a handful of decks, sundial costs nothing and can be used by any deck (like something that uses indirect damage? it starts with "p").

Eagle eye makes a bunch of aggro decks WORSE, i.e. stacked graveyard.

You could run the chain with hourglasses, no need to pile more abilities on one card.

[X]

Sundial is bad without light quantums? It covers a glaring weakness of at least two deck types almost completely, and that's right off the top of my head.

Rainbow decks start out very slow, especially if they're depending on quantum pillars/towers. Two turns with only 3 pillars for no additional cost lets me bring out everything I need to block practically everything. The card drawing is just icing on the cake. Now add that I can throw a shield up without messing with my sundials. THEN put in that it blocks 2 enemy attacks and 1 of mine. THEN add that it blocks momentum.

Poison decks, no need to circle jerk about this, hurr hurr. Sure you can cast purify, but if I have even 1 Chrysaora, that's 6 damage and 3 poison with 1 sundial. If I have two, that's twelve damage and 6 poison. God forbid if I have more sundials.

Oh right, I figure you might as well remove the card drawing ability, since we already have golden hourglasses covering that.

[YourConcern]

the problem of overpowered cards always manifests itself in the same way: more and more ppl are playing them.

i noticed, that in the late top 50 where i'd guess at least 20% were playing that rainbow-sundial.
and i know, that my mono aether would've killed 10 times as often were it not for sundial (10x isn't exaggerated, i have a bad statistic against that deck....)

but i personally don't think that this is only caused by sundial.
what would be useful is to strengthen mono and few-color decks (would result in more firefly queens right now, but: http://elementstheforum.smfforfree3.com/index.php/topic,1179.msg11806.html#new)
i'd do that by removing quanum-pillar from the game entirely (or keep it and let it do 2 dmg per round to caster... or something) and replacing it with pillars that do 2 Q of a SPECIFIC color.
that would result in over 60 new cards. but we need new cards anyway^^ and they don't need new pics, just take the old an fill the 2 specific colors in
the reason for doing that is simple. many cards are too expensive for their power, but are needed for balancing reasons. "steal" for example. darkness needs steal, otherwise it would stand even less chance against me (sry, but personal experience...)
with the way rainbow gathers quantum it can play all cheap powerful cards.
maybe i'm just overestimating rainbow.
but having already seen the queens played with pillars in combination with steal or earthquake is just not right. imo.....

[bobcamel]

Solvent: 3 Time cost on Sundial.

Playing a Rainbow stolen copied from SG, I verily often don't have any quanta for Reversing Time with Eternity.