Does Elements Favor Certain Deck Types?

[Ekki]

Again this brings us back to the idea of using someone else's deck design to grind enough to get your own.  It only adds to the emphasis on grinding over creativity.

What is the point of being forced to grind at all?  It's an arbitrary roadblock designed to slow down your progress in the game so you'll spend more hours playing it.

Why not just make all the cards available to everyone - or open up the trainer to PvP?


EDIT: Or, as I've mentioned elsewhere, make card 'upgrades' a lateral move rather than a quantum one. i.e. 'upgrades' buy different card options, but not cards which are clearly more powerful.

Lemme see, you're saying that using other's decks generates lack of creativity? Then make your own decks, period. If they are less effective, it's because your deckbuilding skills are worse than other's. And if you end up with the same deck than someone else, it's probably because there are few cards in the game, and the non-PvP (PvE) game is a puzzle (as Essence said), and if you don't like puzzles, don't play elements, or see the walkthrough (look in the forums, as it's better known).

If you say that grinding is boring, don't do it.* Regarding grinding, why in hell should be easy to get all the upped cards in the game? The fact that a few (very few) players have made that doesn't mean anything. And if your objective in the game is to upgrade every single card, well... grind, what other way of gaining LOTS of electrum could be?

If you complain about decks archetypes, as Essence said, the PvE IS A PUZZLE, so it has a "best solution", sorry if you don't like it, but artificial AI isn't that intelligent in the present. You don't like it? In PvP you'll see lots of decks archetypes, or otherwise you would be able to make a counter (creativity woo hoo) and win like always or so.

- You want creativity? Go to PvP, you doesn't need to have ANY upped card. 3/4 of the tourneys are unupped (that's a lot, and you won't be that in a disadvantage*), there is an unupped PvP, and the most important events in the game are mainly unupped.
- You want upped to be cheaper, or not to exist, as to make a perfect, equal society? Sorry, some people (not you, as I can see) grind to upgrade every single card*. You can't force them not to want it.
- You want buying cards to be easy, and that the game vary all the time? Unupped cards are cheap, and PvP changes all the time, tourneys are made once a week, and the game changes (new cards yet to explore, AI improvements and changes, etc.)

*edited

Also,

Player Z wins the most prestigious pvp event.

Congrats, "Player Z" for winning the most prestigious PvP event

[funplay]

If you say that grinding is boring, don't do it. Why in hell should be easy to get all the upped cards in the game? The fact that a few (very few) players have made that doesn't mean anything. And if your objective in the game is to upgrade every single card, well... grind, what other way of gaining LOTS of electrum could be?

- You want upped to be cheaper, or not to exist, as to make a perfect, equal society? Sorry, some people (not you, as I can see) like to grind and to upgrade every single card. You can't force them.

1. If theres really somebody out there, who has FUN grinding (i.e. mindlessly beating down AIs as fast as possible), please explain the source of fun out of that to be...i dont get it.

2. I dont think its about having all cards upped being EASY... its about the right BALANCE.  And this balance is a bit off at the moment, at least thats what the majority of the community thinks. For me its not the thing about grinding...its the AMOUNT of it...why in hell should it take about 50 AI3 victories for a single upped card? That only 1500 wins for an upped deck, real bargain (btw: i know grinding FGs is a lot faster )

3. "Just dont do it" - is almost the same as telling somebody "Stop playing this game"...sorry, but completely no need for such arguments.

Imho this tread is commented by people who really like the game. And yes, we want to make it better...here at least we might change something...lets make the world a better place next time

- You want creativity? Go to PvP, you doesn't need to have ANY upped card. 3/4 of the tourneys are unupped (that's a lot, and they're even, not that you'll be in disadvantage), there is an unupped PvP, and the most important events in the game are mainly unupped.

- You want buying cards to be easy, and that the game vary all the time? Unupped cards are cheap, and PvP changes all the time, tourneys are made once a week, and the game changes (new cards yet to explore, AI improvements and changes, etc.) [/quote]

While I mostly agree to this argument, there are still some minor problems...new players are still a little bit at disadvantage. I give you examples:

I thought about participating in last weeks tournament "Time to shine" (in the end i didnt, preferred meeting with some friends ). When i was in deckbuilding mode (and after i collected some info about possible builds;)) i realized that some of my ideas werent possible with my card base...e.g. i lacked 3 titans for a nice tossing titans deck or 3 OEs for flying weapons/UG deck idea...though i could have build these decks with some substitutions (no need for a deck to be how you want it to be)

I would really love to give the vader sader a try...but im sick of grinding. Farming FGs lost its thrill to me completely. So, i lean back, do my daily oracle fight...and perhaps in some months i can afford that deck Hopefully i will have met enough farms in T50 until then, to have the necessary amount of daggers

Taking a look at the current trials i see some people not using their maximum allowed number of upped cards (e.g. when building HB farmers or in the fights)...sure, one could argue "then the shouldnt try to become master of...", but imho this game should be less about the availabilty of cards/upped cards then it is right now...dont wont to remove these mechanics completely, though, cause i do agree that there need to be some challenge and maybe even a bit of grinding...

In conclusion: I agree that upgrades shouldnt be free, but the current mid to end game could definitely use some balancing.

btw: i excluded nymphs on purpose cause there has to be a nice reward for donating/tournament wins

[Ekki]

If you say that grinding is boring, don't do it. Why in hell should be easy to get all the upped cards in the game? The fact that a few (very few) players have made that doesn't mean anything. And if your objective in the game is to upgrade every single card, well... grind, what other way of gaining LOTS of electrum could be?

- You want upped to be cheaper, or not to exist, as to make a perfect, equal society? Sorry, some people (not you, as I can see) like to grind and to upgrade every single card. You can't force them.

1. If theres really somebody out there, who has FUN grinding (i.e. mindlessly beating down AIs as fast as possible), please explain the source of fun out of that to be...i dont get it.

My bad, I meant don't dislike, or just do it without getting bored...

2. I dont think its about having all cards upped being EASY... its about the right BALANCE.  And this balance is a bit off at the moment, at least thats what the majority of the community thinks. For me its not the thing about grinding...its the AMOUNT of it...why in hell should it take about 50 AI3 victories for a single upped card? That only 1500 wins for an upped deck, real bargain (btw: i know grinding FGs is a lot faster )

Well, you may be true... IDK, I see the game as a hard game. It's hard to grind (even with FG's, since 50% of wins is a lot against them), and it's harder to start... Maybe moar quests to help you until you can start grinding FG's can be of some use, but I might be wrong.

3. "Just dont do it" - is almost the same as telling somebody "Stop playing this game"...sorry, but completely no need for such arguments.

OK, my bad again, I used it once for some of those "inherent to the game" game mechanics and it sticked to me.

new players are still a little bit at disadvantage. I give you examples:

I thought about participating in last weeks tournament "Time to shine" (in the end i didnt, preferred meeting with some friends ). When i was in deckbuilding mode (and after i collected some info about possible builds;)) i realized that some of my ideas werent possible with my card base...e.g. i lacked 3 titans for a nice tossing titans deck or 3 OEs for flying weapons/UG deck idea...though i could have build these decks with some substitutions (no need for a deck to be how you want it to be)

Didn't think about that... Although (me personally) I don't use rares too much in PvP, it's true it's a disadvantage, and may need to be solved somehow.

Taking a look at the current trials i see some people not using their maximum allowed number of upped cards (e.g. when building HB farmers or in the fights)...sure, one could argue "then the shouldnt try to become master of...", but imho this game should be less about the availabilty of cards/upped cards then it is right now...dont wont to remove these mechanics completely, though, cause i do agree that there need to be some challenge and maybe even a bit of grinding...

OK, but the Trials should make use of upped cards, both because of better deckbuilding (some cards change a lot between upped/unupped) and because IMO, a master of an element should be a complete player (I mean having grinded for a while at least, and more stuff that don't get to the point).

Also, I'll fix my other post, as to make it less aggressive

[Mark_Tran]

I enjoy grinding FGs.  As I stated in one of my earlier posts, humans crave mastery.  Different people will fulfill that hunger in very different aspects of their life.  For example, one person wants to become an Olympic swimmer, another wants to beat the world record of hair length, another wants to create a new scientific contraption to make salt water drinkable, and yet another wants to raise a child to become famous.  I personally love mastery in every aspect of my life because I'm a bit of a perfectionist and becoming one of the best players at any game I play is just one of the many things that gives me a huge feeling of accomplishment and a real high.

Essentially I'm saying that I get high off grinding FGs lol.

I'm serious though.

P.S. I believe that Zanz wanted there to be an advantage to those who put more time into this game.  Hence the whole trying to get rid of t50 rare farms and moving to a system with even harder to obtain rares.  That's also why nymphs are so hard to obtain.

Don't take this personally, but I don't believe in the feeling of entitlement that today's generation is abundant with.  Hard work should be encouraged and rewarded.  People shouldn't be complaining that everything they want isn't being put in front of them on a silver platter.  Maybe that's just me.

[Ekki]

P.S. I believe that Zanz wanted there to be an advantage to those who put more time into this game.  Hence the whole trying to get rid of t50 rare farms and moving to a system with even harder to obtain rares.  That's also why nymphs are so hard to obtain.

Don't take this personally, but I don't believe in the feeling of entitlement that today's generation is abundant with.  Hard work should be encouraged and rewarded.  People shouldn't be complaining that everything they want isn't being put in front of them on a silver platter.  Maybe that's just me.

^^This. The last part isn't entirely true (since we're asking not to make things TOO hard), but I agree with you.

[funplay]

I enjoy grinding FGs.  As I stated in one of my earlier posts, humans crave mastery.  Different people will fulfill that hunger in very different aspects of their life.  For example, one person wants to become an Olympic swimmer, another wants to beat the world record of hair length, another wants to create a new scientific contraption to make salt water drinkable, and yet another wants to raise a child to become famous.  I personally love mastery in every aspect of my life because I'm a bit of a perfectionist and becoming one of the best players at any game I play is just one of the many things that gives me a huge feeling of accomplishment and a real high.

I like the picture of that olympic swimmer...cause for me this game is not the olympic games Its much more like a national championship. You have to put some effort in it, but its not as competetive as qualifying for olympia

P.S. I believe that Zanz wanted there to be an advantage to those who put more time into this game.  Hence the whole trying to get rid of t50 rare farms and moving to a system with even harder to obtain rares.  That's also why nymphs are so hard to obtain.

if there werent farms, you realize HOW much more time you have to spend? Not fun playing for me...But i realize that Zanz apperently has a different meaning to this...

Don't take this personally, but I don't believe in the feeling of entitlement that today's generation is abundant with.  Hard work should be encouraged and rewarded.  People shouldn't be complaining that everything they want isn't being put in front of them on a silver platter.  Maybe that's just me.

For me:
This is a GAME...its MEANT to be FUN? And not "hard work"...

And even then...what "hard work"? if there were some creative, hard and/or complicated quest to solve, i wouldnt complain...work means to me that i have to use some SKILL...but this is me complaining about the high amount of GRINDING needed, nothing else

Offering the players more ways to get the cards they want with more reasonable, less timeconsuming methods (hey, i still have some work to do...) is also not "serving sth. on a silver platter"...not at all. But maybe that´s just me. 

[QuantumT]

P.S. I believe that Zanz wanted there to be an advantage to those who put more time into this game.  Hence the whole trying to get rid of t50 rare farms and moving to a system with even harder to obtain rares.  That's also why nymphs are so hard to obtain.

if there werent farms, you realize HOW much more time you have to spend? Not fun playing for me...But i realize that Zanz apperently has a different meaning to this...

I realize how much time you'd have to spend, because that's how I got all my rares. It took a long time, but getting rares was something that was actually exciting, precisely because it takes some time. With all of the farms nowadays, getting a rare is hardly even noteworthy anymore.

For me:
This is a GAME...its MEANT to be FUN? And not "hard work"...

And even then...what "hard work"? if there were some creative, hard and/or complicated quest to solve, i wouldnt complain...work means to me that i have to use some SKILL...but this is me complaining about the high amount of GRINDING needed, nothing else

Offering the players more ways to get the cards they want with more reasonable, less timeconsuming methods (hey, i still have some work to do...) is also not "serving sth. on a silver platter"...not at all. But maybe that´s just me. 

It's been said before, if you want a challenge, then you need to go to PvP. PvE just isn't going to do it.

If you don't like the amount of work required to get upped decks, then the solution is simple. Just don't play with upped cards.

[Ekki]

P.S. I believe that Zanz wanted there to be an advantage to those who put more time into this game.  Hence the whole trying to get rid of t50 rare farms and moving to a system with even harder to obtain rares.  That's also why nymphs are so hard to obtain.

if there werent farms, you realize HOW much more time you have to spend? Not fun playing for me...But i realize that Zanz apperently has a different meaning to this...

I realize how much time you'd have to spend, because that's how I got all my rares. It took a long time, but getting rares was something that was actually exciting, precisely because it takes some time. With all of the farms nowadays, getting a rare is hardly even noteworthy anymore.

Yep, they're RARES because of something...

I still would like to have more quests for the begginers, or some kind of reward for score (like rares or whatever), but only once the T500 system is implemented (if it is).

[funplay]

It's been said before, if you want a challenge, then you need to go to PvP. PvE just isn't going to do it.

If you don't like the amount of work required to get upped decks, then the solution is simple. Just don't play with upped cards.

Sure, and skip events like Wars, be outmached in PvP2, skip 1/4 of the tournaments...GREAT idea, sounds like fun.
And sure, its fun, farming for hours to get one single weapon, if i am lucky...

PvE earns you most money and most cards...you might want to share with us how many hours it took? Must be hundreds...now that must have been real hours of excitement, thrill and fun...

Sorry, i became a bit sarcastic, but i already covered that "just dont do it"-argument earlier.

While I do agree, that getting rares by chance is definietely more rewarding when they are harder to get, i still think the system how its meant to be (without T50 farms, or harms) is a bit too harsh to non-hardcore players. Imo, The game as a whole would greatly profit if there was some additional PvE midgame content (like more quests), as Krathos said above.

But as we will probably agree to disagree, i think it would be better to stop the threadjacking and return to the OP...

[Ekki]

Sure, and skip events like Wars War is upped only for the Masters, and to be a Master of an element you should participate in the Trials (which need some upped cards, and I agree with that), so it's unupped, be outmached in PvP2 In this case, the solution IS don't play it, because you're against other PLAYERS, with the same "problems" to get upped cards as you, skip 1/4 of the tournaments you can't deny that players with upped cards are people too, so they have the right to use their upped cards (they are more likely to contribute to the game, since they play more an all that stuff, so they have the right)...GREAT idea, sounds like fun.

I still agree with the non-sarcastic part, but everyone has rights, even the ones with the whole set of upped cards...

[funplay]

skip warWar is upped only for the Masters, and to be a Master of an element you should participate in the Trials (which need some upped cards, and I agree with that), so it's unupped,

Meh, i should have reread the war rules before ranting^^ Generals and Lieutenants can use some upped cards...but i have to admit that the amount is that small, that it can be neglected...not a good example. War is MUCH more about strategy, skill and teamplay...

be outmached in PvP2 In this case, the solution IS don't play it, because you're against other PLAYERS, with the same "problems" to get upped cards as you,

I agree. If you dont have upped cards and play PvP2, you do on your risk

skip 1/4 of the tournaments you can't deny that players with upped cards are people too, so they have the right to use their upped cards (they are more likely to contribute to the game, since they play more an all that stuff, so they have the right)

Again, I agree. While its useful to have some content to use unupped only, its also necessary to have content to include content to able to use your hard gained, upped cards.

Both statements were meant to the answer the"simply dont use upped cards"-argument.

I still agree with the non-sarcastic part, but everyone has rights, even the ones with the whole set of upped cards...

Agreed: fun for everyone