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Krupp

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No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28192#msg28192
« on: February 21, 2010, 08:38:02 pm »
I've played many card games and in all of them there was a constant.

No unbeatable deck

I mean,there is always a deck to counter another one,like in scissor-card-rock game.
Instead here in elements,the possibility to play viable[and viable is an euphemism] rainbow decks takes everyone to play the time elements keeping the same cards.This is the high-level game,while with non-upgraded cards there seems to be an equilibrium.

That said,what do you think,time should be nerfed or should be done new cards able to limit it's power or the metagame is to remain like this?

icybraker

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28193#msg28193
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2010, 08:39:43 pm »
...

Are you talking about a Mono-Time deck, or a Rainbow deck? There is no "best" deck in Elements, every deck has at least one counter.

the fury

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28198#msg28198
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2010, 09:56:07 pm »
...

Are you talking about a Mono-Time deck, or a Rainbow deck? There is no "best" deck in Elements, every deck has at least one counter.
totally agree

ajm6

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28202#msg28202
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2010, 10:10:54 pm »
I think what he is saying is that time cards  (i.e. hourglasses and sundials) are used by many rainbow decks to speed the deck up and he wants to know if there should be something put into the game to force rainbow decks to diversify more.

Tea is good

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28210#msg28210
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2010, 11:57:21 pm »
Time doesn't need to be nerfed. You can brute force time to death because all it can do is delay, no heal, and not much damage

Krupp

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28346#msg28346
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 11:07:07 am »
I was talking about the fact that as i've seen till now,the only god-grinding deck[thus the most played]is heavy on time cards.My opinion,and i repeat,is just an OPINION is taht cards that have to be put in every deck to make it winning,are a bit overpowered

travisjhall

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28352#msg28352
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 11:31:55 am »
In your original post, you talked about how there is a counter to every deck. Well, that's true, and even more, it is a demonstration of a basic principle. For everything, there is some counter - not just a counter to each specific deck, but a counter to each strategy, to every advantage.

The Fake Gods have a specific set of advantages: two cards drawn per turn, triple marks and 200 HP. Decks built to fight the Fake Gods must counter those advantages.

There's nothing unbeatable about time-heavy rainbow decks. They just happen to be the most effective counter to the advantages that Fake Gods have. You've asked for a counter to every type of deck, and you've got it.

If you want to see more diversity in decks built to fight the Fake Gods, you don't need to nerf the counter to the Fake Gods that we have; you need to give the players something different to counter. If you nerfed the time cards that the god-grinders rely on, everyone would simply switch to the next-most effective counter to the Fake Gods, with a lower win rate that would make grinding even more frustrating. If you introduced a more effective counter to the Fake Gods, the decks would swing towards that instead, and you still wouldn't have more deck diversity.

There has been talk of rotating the gods, so that each week a different set would be available. That would start people producing new decks for each different set of gods. If the game went even further to start giving the Fake Gods a different set of advantages (say, 4 card draw, 5xmark, but only 100HP) we'd see different decks being made the overcome the new sets of advantages (say, speed mono-decks, to kill the god before the huge rate of card play overwhelms the player).

(Besides, there are a few variations on the time-heavy rainbow deck. Don't a few people play an Entropy-heavy version?)

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28353#msg28353
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 11:36:30 am »
Rainbows are not very time heavy at all. Considering it is the most used element, it still doesn't compare. Many decks use max sundials, a few hourglasses and eternity. But several others don't use sundials, at all, which significantly cut down on time. Then it's just a simply normal amount of time cards. Nerfing time cards means no one will ever use a mono-time deck because then it will be severely underpowered. It's not about nerfing rainbow decks, that will almost never happen because even if you try to buff mono/duo/other decks, rainbow has a good shot to use those new cards. But also changes the strategy with rainbow, which would bring a higher variety of rainbow decks.
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Offline Essence

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28469#msg28469
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 09:50:48 pm »
I was talking about the fact that as i've seen till now,the only god-grinding deck[thus the most played]is heavy on time cards.My opinion,and i repeat,is just an OPINION is taht cards that have to be put in every deck to make it winning,are a bit overpowered

But every FG grinder also uses Elite Otyughs (Gravity), Bone Walls (Death), and Fire Storms (Fire)...why aren't you complaining about any of those?
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

PhuzzY LogiK

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28481#msg28481
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 10:37:14 pm »
There is no "best" deck in Elements, every deck has at least one counter.
This is true...but almost tautologically so.  Using this criteria, the only overpowered card is one that says "Play this to instantly win the game."  Just because something can be countered doesn't mean it can't examined as overpowered.

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28558#msg28558
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 03:13:02 am »
There is no "best" deck in Elements, every deck has at least one counter.
This is true...but almost tautologically so.  Using this criteria, the only overpowered card is one that says "Play this to instantly win the game."  Just because something can be countered doesn't mean it can't examined as overpowered.
The point is it can be easily countered in many situations, doesn't give you an "OMG because I have this card I'm going to win no matter what!", the card alone doesn't give you a huge edge against everyone, and probably a few more things I can't think of. Sure, in many situtations a certain card will give you a sever advantage other your opponent, but in another time, that card might not make your deck work as well. Such as against Miracle, there is no point to bring an enchant artifact and quintessence because Miracle has no perm/creature control. So it just takes up space in your deck.
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PhuzzY LogiK

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Re: No time-counter deck https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=3258.msg28602#msg28602
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 05:23:54 am »
The point is it can be easily countered in many situations, doesn't give you an "OMG because I have this card I'm going to win no matter what!", the card alone doesn't give you a huge edge against everyone, and probably a few more things I can't think of. Sure, in many situtations a certain card will give you a sever advantage other your opponent, but in another time, that card might not make your deck work as well. Such as against Miracle, there is no point to bring an enchant artifact and quintessence because Miracle has no perm/creature control. So it just takes up space in your deck.
I completely agree with you.  I just felt the earlier response was a little too dismissive. 

I can't think of a specific example right now, but hypothetically, just say there was a card that could only be effectively countered by a combination of two or three cards in the opponent's deck.  Is that card then overpowered?  Suppose enough people played it that it was reasonable to assume 40-60% of the decks you'd face would have that card.  Technically, it can be countered, but you have to add a lot of those potentially useless cards to counter it should it pop up.  So in 60-40% of games (to match the earlier assumed percentage), you've lowered your deck's efficiency needlessly just to counter a card that might have been played.  Am I making any sense?  Again, that was purely hypothetical.

Anyway, I don't mean to get off topic here.  I just thought saying "every deck has at least one counter" is a bit of a sweeping statement, because that counter might be so specialized that it's not practical.

 

blarg: