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Delreich

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6694#msg6694
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

^Still doesn't acount for the fact that I've NEVER seen a Gnome that didn't have poison or burrow, a spark that didn't have ablaze, deja vu, or steal, etc.
First of all, what you're really saying is you don't remember (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias#Selective_memory) seeing those. Second, you not seeing them doesn't mean no-one is seeing them. Third, anecdote is not evidence.

And keep in mind that's a wiki. Anyone can edit it. They could have pulled that stuff from their ***.
There's also a log of edits, and the only editor of that article is chriskang, who has RE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering)'d large parts of the game.

And based on those numbers, there is a .00169...% chance to get a specific mutant. To get two of the same mutant, that chance is A LOT smaller. I doubt ANYBODY has mutated enough creatures to get two of the same thing at those odds, let alone multiple of the same creature. I highly doubt it is coincidence; there must be an explanation.
To get two of the same mutant, the chance is exactly the same as getting one specific mutant if you have one previous mutant, twice that if you have two, and so on.
The chance of having at least one duplicate in five mutations is about 0.01%. For ten mutations, which doesn't seem unreasonable for a single game, it's twice that.
For comparison, the chance of winning a shard of a god is less than 0.5% per win, and similar for getting three cards in one win. Those happen often enough, no?

As for that last sentence, I'm starting to feel a bit like a broken record here but have another look at that wikipedia article on confirmation bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias).


On the random() issue, I doubt the choice of seed is an issue. Much more likely would be how (or when, rather) seeding is done, or how the random numbers are used (ie the random events might not be independent).
I'm sure chris can sort that out though.

Evil Hamster

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6695#msg6695
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

That might also explain why certain days I only seem to face seism/morte/scorpio/rainbow...

Or when playing T-50, say 20 games, you'll almost always face one opponent 4 times.

PuppyChow

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6696#msg6696
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

I forgot that Spark also seems to get immaterial a lot, too. It seems to me that each creature has 3-4 sub abilities it can learn. The stat boosts are probably completely random, as well as the ability's cost, but I believe the abilities are rigged.

Then again, like an above poster said, it could just be an error in the random procedure, making it not so "random." A random function is not really random; it is a list of numbers created by a complex algorithm (correct me if I'm wrong). The random function seeded at a specific point is always the same. Therefore, if Zanz does not seed the random at time to the milliseconds (or something of the equivalent), there could be a higher probability of certain creatures appearing more/certain abilities appearing more. Basically, it could be an error with how the random function is seeded, but to be honest, that is kind of a beginner's mistake and I don't think Zanz would make it.

Of course, I'm assuming that the random function in Flash programming is equivalent to that in Java programming. With Flash, seeding the random could be much more complex than declaring a variable and setting the current time in milliseconds to that variable then seeding the random with it. I dunno.

PuppyChow

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6697#msg6697
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

^Still doesn't acount for the fact that I've NEVER seen a Gnome that didn't have poison or burrow, a spark that didn't have ablaze, deja vu, or steal, etc.

And keep in mind that's a wiki. Anyone can edit it. They could have pulled that stuff from their ***.

And based on those numbers, there is a .00169...% chance to get a specific mutant. To get two of the same mutant, that chance is A LOT smaller. I doubt ANYBODY has mutated enough creatures to get two of the same thing at those odds, let alone multiple of the same creature. I highly doubt it is coincidence; there must be an explanation.

Sigh

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6698#msg6698
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

I have been noticing this for a while now too. And here I am, just la di dah, fighting Gemeni, and look, two pairs of exactly the same mutations with the same stats (or atleast as far as I know, that one guy with destroy in the top left corner might not have the same att... BUT STILL) This cannot be coincidence.

(Would have a pic but Gimp was stupid and closed on me before I could save. Still not used to a REAL art program...)

chriskang

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6973#msg6973
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:04 pm »

I don't understand the percentages at all. Why are there numbers there with commas?
There are commas there because not everyone is American. :P
They're decimal separators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator), and those of us who use commas in our native tongue sometimes get them mixed up when writing in English.
I know I do, at least... I guess chris does as well.
Fixed.
Thanks for letting me know.

Delreich

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6974#msg6974
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:04 pm »

I know this doesn't EXACTLY pertain to mutations and the like, but does anyone know or can they figure out the odds of winning 2 firemasters from Graviton in a row from the slots?
With some knowledge of combinatorics (and/or statistics) it shouldn't be too difficult with the help of this: http://elementsthegame.wikia.com/wiki/Graviton

Now to the real observation: Delreich, are you completely sure you didn't get atleast one creature with the mutate ability? Because I actually get that ability a lot in almost every creature...
Not in that session, no. Well, there might have been one among the ones I didn't take note of, but I don't think so. I've gotten one in the current session though.

IMPORTANT EDIT: Just mutated and got a graboid, who then turned into a buried Forest Spirit. I think we may have found the cause of *some* of our discrepancies: the hatch ability.
That's more likely to be an issue with burrow, similar to how momentum messes things up.

Something that might affect things is mutating mutants, especially for someone like me who uses Fallen Elf.
I'm guessing at least some of my Abomination mutants were 'failed' mutations (not so much in that session, but in the current one).
This might have an effect on "improve" as well, if they get a second mutation or something (think PU).
Speaking of PU, mutants that are PUd can have lower stats than the original. They don't get the boost on top of the already boosted stats.

Edit: Now I'm not so sure about the PU bit... at least deja vu grants an extra big bonus, as I've just gotten a 10/5 Firefly.

Delreich

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6975#msg6975
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:04 pm »

I don't understand the percentages at all. Why are there numbers there with commas?
There are commas there because not everyone is American. :P
They're decimal separators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_separator), and those of us who use commas in our native tongue sometimes get them mixed up when writing in English.
I know I do, at least... I guess chris does as well.

Delreich

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6976#msg6976
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:04 pm »

The impact of the first problem (correlation between 2 consecutive call) is harder to evaluate as it is very hard for me to know what calls are consecutive without the original source code from Zanzarino. I spotted a link between mutant skill and life bonus as I'm sure those are consecutive:
if (mutant skill is hatch, burrow, steal, heal, paradox, scavenger, gravity pull, mutation, ablaze or deja vu) then life bonus is between 0 and 2, with higher chances to be 0 or 1.
if (mutant skill is freeze, destroy, dive, momentum, lycanthropy, infection, devour, growth, poison or immaterial) then life bonus is between 2 and 4, with higher chances to be 3 or 4.
You must've made a mistake there somewhere, 'cause I've gotten a 10/5 bone dragon (ie zero boosts) with poison.
The others (that I've gotten) match for the one session I've taken notes of so far, though.

Here's what I've got. All in the same session, though I missed some mutants (on the enemy side, or made by the enemy).
Creature
Abomination
Abomination
Abomination
Purple Dragon
Purple Dragon
Purple Dragon
Purple Dragon
Lycanthrope
Bone Dragon
Bone Dragon
Vulture
Otyugh
Graboid
Shrieker
Shrieker
Rustler
Crimson Dragon
Fire Spirit
Lava Golem
Chrysaora
Mind Flayer?
Photon
Golden Dragon
Guardian Angel
Dragonfly
Wyrm   
Firefly Queen
Anubis
Anubis
Anubis
Black Dragon
Black Dragon
Devourer
Devourer
Minor Vampire
Phase Dragon
Atk boost
1
3?
0
4
4
3
1
3
0
0
2
2
4
1
1
1
4
4
3
4
0?
1
4
3
1
2
1
1
0
0
3
3
1
0
4
1
HP boost
3
4?
3
1
1
0
2
4
0
0
3
2
3
0
2
1
4
3
2
0
4
1
0
1
1
4
1
3
2
2
0
0
4
2
4
2
Ability
poison
destroy
destroy
paradox
paradox
scavenger
infect
infect
poison
ablaze
momentum
infect
freeze
heal
steal
heal
freeze
destroy
heal
paradox
devour
ablaze
deja vu
heal
scavenger
devour
pull
lycanthropy
scavenger
scavenger
heal
heal
infect
pull
growth
heal
Cost
1
2?
2
2
2
0
2
2
2
1
0
1
2
2
1
1
1
2
1
2
2
1
1
2
0
2
1
?
0
0
1
2
2
1
2
2
The question marked Abomination was one I gave either Graviton or Gemini. It was either 6/9 or 8/9 at one point, but I'm not sure if that was before or after it got hit with Unstoppable. Not sure about the ability cost.
The Mind Flayer might have been some other water critter, but I think it was a flayer with 2 attack. I know it had 6 HP and 2-water devour (I think this was vs Scorpio).
For the lycan Anubis, I had already used the ability before I remembered to take notes.
The two identical Purple Dragons came in the same game, likewise for the scavenging Anubises. Not sure if that matters. The two possibly identical Abominations came in different games.

PuppyChow

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6977#msg6977
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:04 pm »

That makes sense. And his error in his random function makes certain mutations happen more often :P. Therefore, not confirmation bias  8).

Sigh

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6978#msg6978
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:04 pm »

I know this doesn't EXACTLY pertain to mutations and the like, but does anyone know or can they figure out the odds of winning 2 firemasters from Graviton in a row from the slots?

Now to the real observation: Delreich, are you completely sure you didn't get atleast one creature with the mutate ability? Because I actually get that ability a lot in almost every creature...

IMPORTANT EDIT: Just mutated and got a graboid, who then turned into a buried Forest Spirit. I think we may have found the cause of *some* of our discrepancies: the hatch ability.

Sigh

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Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6979#msg6979
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:04 pm »

OOooooooooohhhhhhh, ok then, didnt know that was the case. Did the math real quick on the computers calc and it was about 20% chance for both to be firemasters. Thanks Del. Learn something new everyday :P

 

anything
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