*Author

Offline Essence

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4340
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 57
  • Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Essence is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.
  • Voice of the Oracle -- Jezzie's Pimp -- Often Gone
  • Awards: 2nd Trials - Master of Water1st Trials - Master of WaterFG Deck-Designer - The OutcastsShard Madness! Competition WinnerEpic 3 Card Design Competition WinnerElder Recruiter
Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6130#msg6130
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

Mutations don't actually have "all abilities" on the list of available options.  You can't get, for example, Photosynthesis, (Bio-)Luminescence, Evolve, Venom (bummer), Queen (bummer), Vampire, Immortality, or the unnamed ability that Eternity has. 

Oh, and that Anubis isn't a mutant: that's what they normally look like. :)


Essence
If something happens and you think it deserves my attention, feel free to PM me. Other than that, I'm probably here if you want to shoot the breeze.

Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6131#msg6131
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

Mutations don't actually have "all abilities" on the list of available options.
...which is what I meant by "a subset". ;)

I probably shouldn't have said "uniformly" though, as some abilities (e.g. steal, destroy) seem rarer than others. Don't know what I was thinking there.
What I meant was, it seems like what critter you get has no impact on what ability you get.
A good example of this is if you TU a mutant. You get another mutated version of the creature, but with higher stats and a different ability.

Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6132#msg6132
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

/facepalm

your right..obviously......doh..let me mutate a few more and find out :P
ill edit later with results :)

edit: your right. i edited out any results that might of being wrong rather than just changed the element.

Added more results to table.

Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6133#msg6133
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

I was going to table it...But by the time i had that written out, i had to go out :P The problem is that its nowhere near enough data, not even close. Which makes me sad :( But oh well, best i could do.

The limited results do show a trend, but im unable to reach a conclusion because with such a small batch of results  it could still be luck :(

Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6134#msg6134
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:01 pm »

Look at the above pictures, i just ran over them to check and noticed that at least a few did have quamtum from other elements needed. It is mostly! from their own looking at them/the data i got, but not only.


edit: second picture on page: anubis needs one aether quantum

edit 2: I did want to only mutate one creature once and to only mutate one type of creature to keep the data as clean as possible. But this proved too annoying and took to much time. So i dont know if that has affected my data at all.

PuppyChow

  • Guest
Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6414#msg6414
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:02 pm »

I commonly get:

-Crimson Dragons with Hatch
-Immaterial Phase Spiders
-Guardian Angles with Dive
-Stone Dragons with Growth
-Colossal Dragons with Steal
-Fire Spirits with Steal/Dive
-Bone Dragons with Blaze/Growth
-Phase Dragons with Paradox
-Pegasi with Burrow
-Earth Gnome thingies (XD) with Poison
-Firefly Queens with Devour

That's just off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure each creature has a subset of 2-3 abilities it can gain through mutation; I have never seen a Bone Dragon with Paradox or Devour, for instance.

chriskang

  • Guest
Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6688#msg6688
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

Gnome with DejaVu
& Spark with Immaterial :
http://img62.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=gnomedejavu.jpg

chriskang

  • Guest
Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6689#msg6689
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

There's definitely a flaw here.
Let me try an explanation and again, forgive my frenglish.

So the game has 2 ways to pick up a random number:
- the first way is a native method of Actionscript called "Math.random()". If you're interested, see this:
http://www.adobe.com/support/flash/action_scripts/actionscript_dictionary/actionscript_dictionary466.html
This one should always work fine and give accurate (pseudo)random numbers.
- the second method consists in taking the number from a pool build by Zanzarino. That's the one used by the "mutation" code.

Here's the detailed algorithm of the second method:
- function newseed() picks up 200 random number (by calling Math.random()) between 0 and 9 and concatenates them in a string of size 200.
- function rand() has an internal counter called "nnn" that is increased by 1 each time the function is called and reset to 0 when it reaches 197. This function returns the substring (of size 4) from the previous 200 characters string, starting at position "nnn" and divided by 10000 to produce a number between 0 and 1.
This is probably quite hard to understand so here's an example:
Let's say the first function produces the string "12345678901234 ... 67890" (size 200)
Then the first call to rand() will return 0.1234 (first 4 characters divided by 10000)
The second call will return 0.2345 (4 characters starting at the next position in the long string)
Then 0.3456 and so on.

Obviously, there is a strong correlation between 2 consecutive numbers picked by rand().
And there is more: for unknown reasons, the function newseed() that produces the 200 characters string is only called at the launch of the game (and when I say "launch" I mean before the login screen, not each time you start a new battle).
So, while you don't refresh the page in your internet browser (and retype your login name/password), you'll keep on getting the same 197 numbers over and over again.
This is exactly why the odds to see the same exact creature on the battlefield are so high (1 out of 197 if you just mutate 1 creature, much more if you mutate more).

The second problem (only 197 different "random" numbers) looks to me like the most serious one. Pick up a pen and paper, mutate like hell, write down the stats of all the different creatures you get, and when your list counts 197 mutants you can be sure that all the next mutations will produce a mutant from the list. And if you don't reload the swf, you'll stick with this list forever.
The impact of the first problem (correlation between 2 consecutive call) is harder to evaluate as it is very hard for me to know what calls are consecutive without the original source code from Zanzarino. I spotted a link between mutant skill and life bonus as I'm sure those are consecutive:
if (mutant skill is hatch, burrow, steal, heal, paradox, scavenger, gravity pull, mutation, ablaze or deja vu) then life bonus is between 0 and 2, with higher chances to be 0 or 1.
if (mutant skill is freeze, destroy, dive, momentum, lycanthropy, infection, devour, growth, poison or immaterial) then life bonus is between 2 and 4, with higher chances to be 3 or 4.
As for a link between creature's appearance and skill, I'm not able to give you an answer, as I don't know if those calls are consecutive or not. PuppyChow said that he saw sparks with ablaze, deja vu and steal and I provided screenshots of other sparks with poison, immaterial and momentum. Without more evidence, I'll just suppose there is no link here.



chriskang

  • Guest
Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6690#msg6690
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

It's still lacking some details on how the random selections happen, but as nothing is specified I assume they're independent and uniform. Here's hoping chris corrects me if I'm wrong.
You're correct. Each one of the 56 creatures has the same chance to be chosen (for some reasons Scarab, Devonian Dragon and Immortal are excluded).
Same for skill, attack boost, life boost, and skill cost.


I've NEVER seen a Gnome that didn't have poison or burrow, a spark that didn't have ablaze, deja vu, or steal, etc.


You probably don't have played enough to see all combinations.
Yet, you might be partially right. I spotted a piece of code that might involve a flaw in the random() procedure. I'll investigate on that soon.



Daxx

  • Guest
Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6691#msg6691
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

chriskang, thanks for the analysis. That's really helpful.

Could you speculate on Zanz might have written that script as opposed to actually generating random numbers each time? For example, does Math.random() use a lot of system resources or take a long time to run?

Delreich

  • Guest
Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6692#msg6692
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

I posted this in another thread already, but it's relevant here as well, so: http://elementsthegame.wikia.com/wiki/Mutant (http://elementsthegame.wikia.com/wiki/Mutant). Seems I was pretty much spot on.
It's still lacking some details on how the random selections happen, but as nothing is specified I assume they're independent and uniform. Here's hoping chris corrects me if I'm wrong.

I have been noticing this for a while now too. And here I am, just la di dah, fighting Gemeni, and look, two pairs of exactly the same mutations with the same stats (or atleast as far as I know, that one guy with destroy in the top left corner might not have the same att... BUT STILL) This cannot be coincidence.
Why can't it be coincidence? The chance of getting two identical mutants (assuming the above is accurate) is better than 1 in 60k (59 critters, 25 atk/hp boost combos, 20 abilities, 2 costs).
And that's assuming you only have two mutants. With more mutants, the chance of getting duplicates improves. Most mutaters have far more than two mutants most games.
Keep in mind that people aren't paying attention to all the non-duplicates. This is precisely what confirmation bias is all about, noticing "special" events and thinking they're more common than they are.

Delreich

  • Guest
Mutations https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=606.msg6693#msg6693
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2009, 10:10:03 pm »

That is indeed quite bad. Why would anyone do something like that? Even a simple LCG (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_congruential_generator) would be better, and probably faster as well.

And there is more: for unknown reasons, the function newseed() that produces the 200 characters string is only called at the launch of the game (and when I say "launch" I mean before the login screen, not each time you start a new battle).
This would be correct behaviour if the random number generation had been good, wouldn't it? So, while it's horrendously bad as it is, the general idea was right?


 

anything
blarg: