Minor Phoenix/Aflatoxin

[miniwally]

the whole point of this discussion or what kami's talking about ('as-is'), at least to me is about how a creature can evade turning into a cell when they died, not how many ways you can avoid being targeted or killed with aflatoxin
kami knew of only 1, i knew of only 2 and smug, as ancient and wise as he is revealed to us one more

So a virus using it's ability to evade turning into a cell is fine but other creatures suing there ability to avoid turning into a virus isn't alright?

[kobisjeruk]

because virus/retrovirus ability invoke death trigger (same with phoenix/cells) and it has an innate sacrifice tacked on
how many more creatures can be sacrificed to trigger its effect? if you can find one and it does not turn into a cell after being aflatoxined, we'll add that to the as-is list too

[homoaddictus]

I like it as it is. It's basically the only 'as-is' card that can beat Aflatoxin.

If you look at the context of Kami's post, I'd say Malduk and the others were right.

the whole point of this discussion or what kami's talking about ('as-is'), at least to me is about how a creature can evade turning into a cell when they died, not how many ways you can avoid being targeted or killed with aflatoxin
kami knew of only 1, i knew of only 2 and smug, as ancient and wise as he is revealed to us one more

Now, if Kamietsu was really referring to creatures killed by aflatoxin, then virus/retrovirus does not count. It killed itself, so the game did the right thing because Aflatoxin had nothing to do with it.

Also, I think the game has a distinction about dying and being sacrificed. It's like a rule in MTG. Creatures that DIE can be regenerated or healed or be targeted by an effect or spell. While creatures that get SACRIFICED go directly to the graveyard.

[kobisjeruk]

my bad for not testing thoroughly...seems like kami is right
although maybe i am the one who misunderstood what exactly he means by 'as-is'
the term i would use is 'replacement effect'
only Phoenix/Minor Phoenix has a built-in replacement effect that trigger some effects when they die (as other creatures would) but also overwrite aflatoxin death trigger to replace the infected creature with a malignant cell with their own ability, replacing itself with Ash

virus/retrovirus also has a replacement effect, but it only happens when they sacrifice themselves to their ability (devouring or bolting will still leave behind a cell) and thus it is NOT like phoenix/m.phoenix at all

malignant cell on the other hand is a mystery
it doesnt have a replacement effect but, any attempt to get a cell from an aflatoxined cell whether by force (devouring, firebolting etc) or by letting them die will produce no cell, not even a cell created by their own natural ability (but that has been explained in some other thread that i'm too lazy to search right now)
i havent tested what would happen if you tried this with a lobo'ed cell yet though

[Demut]

So the real question is, why is something being able to die and not get aflatoxined, important?

[geekz_always_win]

So the real question is, why is something being able to die and not get aflatoxined, important?

Because Aflatoxin doesn't work on certain decks now. If I could Aflatoxin Phoenixes and get away with it, then an early draw would basically hand me the game with some healing and a shield.

[Demut]

As has been pointed out, plenty of decks easily beat aflatoxin without being immune to the "die, get aflaed" thing. So that can't be it.

[geekz_always_win]

As has been pointed out, plenty of decks easily beat aflatoxin without being immune to the "die, get aflaed" thing. So that can't be it.

It's just something that's handy to know. Obviously MP/Fractal isn't the only way to beat Aflatoxin, otherwise it'd be ridiculously OP. You don't though, want to think that you can aflatoxin a Phoenix and get a WTF when it doesn't work. I never said that this was like a game breaking new discovery.

[Nume]

Yeah that is annoying when that happens vs eternal phoenix . Really the only way I find to use it on him is if I either have both aflatoxin and liquid shadow early, or if he gets 2+ dragons early and I only have 1 AM (I try not to use it on first dragon almost no matter what bc getting AM on it is crucial to survivig).

[Malduk]

We're talking about "cards", not "creatures". There are shitload counters to Aflatoxin. Lightning to name one. Kill the first cell, and all Afla did was spend huge amount of quanta to kill one creature. Slowly. Afla = super weak card.

Pheonix is one of the cards that can avoid being removed from the board upon death, not one card that can "beat Aflatoxin". Pheonix beats every attempt to kill it by the same mechanic, Afla has nothing to do with it. And implying that its okay for Pheonix to avoid cell generation because otherwise Afla would be too strong, is silly.

[homoaddictus]

@kobisjeruk Lobo'ed malignant cell lose the infest ability so they don't generate new cells. I believe malignant cells were created with cancer cells in mind so dead cells can't generate new ones.

IMO, the phoenix should generate a malignant cell when it dies. It's most probably a bug where the game won't effectively process some effect stacks. Or phoenix is just made special.

We should not be talking about relative card power here. We should be talking about how the cards should really work in this given scenario. It's what the OP question is.

[kobisjeruk]

i think 'phoenix' (the ability, not the card) has a higher priority/order on death trigger
not sure why zanz made it that way, not really complaining either since phoenix (the card) is quite unique