Elements the Game Forum - Free Online Fantasy Card Game
Elements the Game => General Discussion => Topic started by: implosion on August 12, 2010, 10:38:34 pm
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In the old, undeveloped world of 1.24, it was common knowledge that there was a maximum HP value. What was that value? 520. 100 + 120 from shards of divinity + 300 from stone skins. However, with 1.25, a new tool exists. That tool?
Mind gate.
Now, using mind gate I designed an experiment that would allow infinite maximum hit points. With Xelax opposite me, we PvP'd using Kong chat to coordinate.
My deck (blanks are un-upped mindgates):
5l9 5l9 5l9 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5ro 5ro 61o 61o 61o 623 623 623 623 623 623 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 7q8 808 808 808 808 808 808
His deck:
4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 4sa 594 594 594 594 594 594 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5l9 5rg 5rg 5rg 5rg 5ro 5ro 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6qq 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 7q0 7q8
The result:
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd79795/Picture_406.png) (http://imageplay.net/)
And we could have gone infinitely farther, but an unfortunate turn was one second too slow, and we desynced. Though the AI had more stone skins left in its deck, it was rewinding its photons so it could not get to them.
HOW IT WAS DONE:
Step one: Player 1 should play pillars, mindgates, photons, and eternities. They should use mindgate on their opponent as often as possible. After they get 2-4 SoGs out they should NOT play any more, as they will clog up perm slots.
Step two: Player 2 should play all of their pillars, photons, SoGs and eternities as they draw them. They can hold on to or play stone skins, whichever they wish.
Step three: Player 1 should wait until they have 50 :earth quanta and a fair number of :aether and :earth pillars, as well as several mindgates. quantum pillars that they mindgate from their opponent help too.
Step four: if player 1 gets a stone skin from their mindgate, they should use all mindgates and all stone skins.
Step five: after this, they should rewind one of player 2's photons.
Step six: player 2, on their turn, should rewind one of player 1's photons and play their own.
Step seven: go back to step four, except player 1 is guaranteed to get stone skins.
By repeating steps 4-7 infinitely, player 1 can gain 300 hp per turn. It's even possible to gain more than that in a single turn by hoarding stone skins.
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Ingenuity at its finest :)
Bravo.
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Make two teams, and give all the players on the first team the first deck, and all the ones on the second one the second deck, then have them all enter pvp2, and wait until a person on one of the teams meets somebody on the other team, then see how far they can go, and then see how much electrum the guy with 10000 hp gets when he wins. That would be so epic O.o
You could make, like, a LOT of electrum this way! *hmmmm....*
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Make two teams, and give all the players on the first team the first deck, and all the ones on the second one the second deck, then have them all enter pvp2, and wait until a person on one of the teams meets somebody on the other team, then see how far they can go, and then see how much electrum the guy with 10000 hp gets when he wins. That would be so epic O.o
You could make, like, a LOT of electrum this way! *hmmmm....*
I'd join :P
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Very cool. :)
I'd like to see how much cash you get when winning with that kind of HP.
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sounds like fun :D
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I feel honoured and humbled to have taken part in such an important and difficult experiment that will hopefully, in time, benefit all of man kind
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I feel honoured and humbled to have taken part in such an important and difficult experiment that will hopefully, in time, benefit all of man kind
lol
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That. Is. Ridiculous.
Congratulations, if only you had won...very large number of electrum...
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very nice
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To lower the risk while playing with this deck (PVP2 might cost a lot of score when you are trying to find each other). One T50 player could provide a deck with a setup like this:
6rm 6rm 6rm 6rm 6rm 6rm 6rn 6rn 6rn 6rn 77k 77k 77k 77k 77k 77k 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jo 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 7jp 80j 80j 80jThe Placeholder are Mindgates which serve solely the purpose of speeding up the "farmers" deck. The Mindgates can be replaced with anything. And the SoD are for decks which don't use Earth Quantum, since the "infinite" HP setup only requires a semi specific setup which will be explained after the second deck.
The player, who wants to get the maximum amount of HP uses a deck like this:
778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 778 7jp 7n2 7n2 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q0 7q8 7q8 7q8 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 80j 80j 80j 80j 80j 80jPlaceholder are of course Mindgates. Play until your opponent has a at least two SoGs - for staying alive - and at least one RoL/Photon out. The T50 deck can be optimized to get this setup as quickly as possible.
To get the whole combo rolling the player should have a normal Eternity, a flying one, at least one SoG for the damage from the RoLs/Photons, a RoL/Photon, a Mindgate(or more) and the Towers/Pillars to provide two Rewinds and at least one Duality per turn by himself in play. Of course the second deck can be optimized for this setup too.
Now the player has to wait until the next card the T50 guy would draw is a +HP card, which is the Duality target. Then he uses Rewind on the RoL/Photon from the opponent and waits for him to play it in the next turn while gaining a lot of HP with Duality in his own turn. The second Eternity is for preventing his own deckout.
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fun to see now the T50 are setting up electrum farms :)
but it is possible to give the amount of EM only
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Now the player has to wait until the next card the T50 guy would draw is a +HP card, which is the Duality target. Then he uses Rewind on the RoL/Photon from the opponent and waits for him to play it in the next turn while gaining a lot of HP with Duality in his own turn.
i know how it works but exactly how are you able to see which card to copy with MG seeing it is supposed to be the first card on deck which they havent drawn yet?
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Presumably, they'd just be using mind gate at least once every turn until it produced a stoneskin. Then they'd rewind the photon which hopefully is already on the field (if it isnt you just have to wait for the next stoneskin). Its the same way they'd know its coming with the set up version.
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i know how it works but exactly how are you able to see which card to copy with MG seeing it is supposed to be the first card on deck which they havent drawn yet?
Since the player is able to play every card of the T50 deck (i think it would be even better here to replace the Light Towers with Time/Aether ones, because they would speed up the setup for the player even more) he wants to use Duality every turn in order to get the missing cards for the combo.
With this the player sets up the combo on his side and also gets to know you when he has the opponent in the situation he wants him to be for the final thing.
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There is a theoretical maximum on HP, actually.
If Zanz used unsigned int variables (presumably 4 bytes), it should be the decimal equivalent of 11111111111111111111111111111111. In other words, about 4 billion if I did my math right. If he used a normal int, it would be about half that. Also plausible is the unsigned int taking 2 bytes, which gives 1111111111111111, aka 2^16 - 1, or about 65 thousand. If we're lucky, it's just 32 thousand or so. If we're not, he used an unsigned long long. I don't know about flash, but in C++ that has a max of 17 quintillion or so.
I reccomend Stone Skin.
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Presumably, they'd just be using mind gate at least once every turn until it produced a stoneskin. Then they'd rewind the photon which hopefully is already on the field (if it isnt you just have to wait for the next stoneskin). Its the same way they'd know its coming with the set up version.
silly me, i forgot that you can use MG every turn
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If Player 2 had mind gates, you can get more then 6 mind gates.
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I figured out a way to get the absolute maximum AFAIK, if anyone can EVER calculate this.
One deck needs to get as many mind gates as they can in the first turns. Preferably losing the coin toss, and getting 6 mind gates, 2 aether pillars, and drawing aether pillars every time after that. They would have to copy all they can, obviously.
The deck would include enough aether pillars to utilize a crapton of mind gates.
The other deck would need to draw the mind gates soon after the opponent can start utilizing them so that the 6 mind gates can copy from one on the top of the deck, which gives the opponent 42 total mindgates. (this is getting tricky...) Then the copier would have to copy bunches of stone pillars and amass as much stone quanta as they can, then get the stone skins in the last 18 or so cards. The SoDs would be drawn after that.
This deck needs to have a crapton of stone pillars, 6 stone skins, 6 mind gates, 6 SoD, and be able to rewind with a Photon and Eternity. (the first deck can copy it)
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...which gives the opponent 42 total mindgates...
you can only have a fixed number of permanents, 14 not including shield and weapon if i'm not mistaken
since a slot will be used for aether pendulums/towers and another for stone towers, that leaves 12 slot max for mind gates
but all that doesnt matter anyway...the point is getting the most hp you can
i'd suggest something like this :-
prey:
6rm 6rm 6rm 6rm 6rm 6rm 6rn 6rn 77k 77k 77k 77k 77k 77k 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 7jp 7q8 7q8 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri 80j 80j 80j 80j1st ?? = earth pendulums (6)
2nd ?? = time pendulums (4)
3rd ?? = mind gates (4)
predator:
6rn 6rn 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 78q 7jp 7q8 7q8 7ri 7ri 7ri 7ri 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 808 80j 80j 80j 80j 80j 80j1st ?? = earth pendulums
2nd ?? = time pendulums
3rd ?? = mind gates
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someone have started the experiment a few months ago about maximium deck size,
what he needs are some flying Eternity and Aflatoxin.
but there are no result till now, I think the experiment is keep going. :))
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I figured out a way to get the absolute maximum AFAIK, if anyone can EVER calculate this.
One deck needs to get as many mind gates as they can in the first turns. Preferably losing the coin toss, and getting 6 mind gates, 2 aether pillars, and drawing aether pillars every time after that. They would have to copy all they can, obviously.
The deck would include enough aether pillars to utilize a crapton of mind gates.
The other deck would need to draw the mind gates soon after the opponent can start utilizing them so that the 6 mind gates can copy from one on the top of the deck, which gives the opponent 42 total mindgates. (this is getting tricky...) Then the copier would have to copy bunches of stone pillars and amass as much stone quanta as they can, then get the stone skins in the last 18 or so cards. The SoDs would be drawn after that.
This deck needs to have a crapton of stone pillars, 6 stone skins, 6 mind gates, 6 SoD, and be able to rewind with a Photon and Eternity. (the first deck can copy it)
The thing about this experiment is that the stone skins last forever- the rewind makes sure that the Stone Skin stays on top so you can have infinite stone skins as long as you've got the patience and the tolerance for long hours of repetitive clicking. All that's needed is for the first player to have mind gates and an eternity and the other player to have Stone skins and eternity. And a couple of photons
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This is epic. I want to test this. I could make either one of the decks in here and put it up in t50. If some other t50 player would be happy to do it i would repay the favor.
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So.
Maximum now is 43 * 70 * 6 + 100
Am I right?
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I am not.
It is...
57 * 70 + 100
Am I right, this time?
(No nightmare or rewind.)
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So.
Maximum now is 43 * 70 * 6 + 100
Am I right?
No- as long as you have the quanta for rewinds and mind gates it could technically go on forever. Limited by whatever upper limit has been put on it due to to memory space I guess
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This doesn't work anymore. Player hp is now capped at 500.
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This doesn't work anymore. Player hp is now capped at 500.
o.O Not even 520...
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Using this same method you could test the caps on spells and towers and such too :P. Basically you can get infinite of whatever card you want to test using this which is pretty cool heh.
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This doesn't work anymore. Player hp is now capped at 500.
This had to happen for obvious reasons - serious abuse potential.
How serious? There's no cap to HP yet in Trainer, so did the following to satisfy my curiosity:
- I'm in Top 50, so set my deck with Granite Skins, RoLs, and SoGs
- Played myself in Trainer with a Mindgate deck
It took a lot less time than I thought it would to rack up over 10,000 HP (and didn't have to worry about desynchs).
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd79982/10250_HP.bmp) (http://imageplay.net/)
Standard EM in T50 is 60 electrum. What about EM with HPs galore?
(http://imageplay.net/img/m7Gbd79983/EM.bmp) (http://imageplay.net/)
Yikes!! And this could have gone on, well...forever (almost).
Nice job, Implosion and Xelax, for finding a way to break one of the new cards
benefit all of mankind with your experiment ;).
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Lol dam that would have definitely encouraged some new electrum farms in t50 :P. I think the cap should have probably been made to something like 550 though, or at least the 520 that was possible before :P.
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it saddens me that zanz decided to nerf max HP to 500
sure, there wasnt that many 6 stone skin, 6 SoD decks to begin with but still...
at least now you dont have to wait until you get to 50 :earth to start chaining your skins
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That raises the question tho.. How much electrum do you get with an EM at 500hp?! First one to find out gets cookie of AWE
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for FGs, it would be less than 330 because thats what you get if you win with EM at 520 HP
for HBs, <290
for T50, <228
for AI3, <124
i havent bothered to check the exact score/electrum
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Sadly it was capped, cuz I calculated an absolute number abusing the following:
The Top Deck card is Nightmare.
You use Nightmare.
You get 7 Nightmares.
The Top Deck card is Stone Skin.
You get 12 Stone Skins.
You use Nightmare.
Deck order of opponent now is Nightmare, Stone Skin, Nightmare, Stone Skin....
Following this, you can use Stone Skin 12*7*6=504 times.
Adding the maximum number of SoD´s(12*6=72) and the cards of your deck, you will end up at
27160 HP
Maybe I did a mistake somewhere, but this amount of HP was possible.
But, well this is based on really HUGE luck...would be based, since the HP is capped now.
...if you´d used Eternity the amount would be infinite.
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The Top Deck card is Nightmare.
You use Nightmare.
You get 7 Nightmares.
The Top Deck card is Stone Skin.
You get 12 Stone Skins.
You use Nightmare.
Deck order of opponent now is Nightmare, Stone Skin, Nightmare, Stone Skin....
huh?
so you only calculate? not actually test it out? because i'm confused how you're able to replicate 7 nightmares and 12 stone skins and somehow manipulate the stack on your opponent deck like that
someone can explain how is this possible?
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The Top Deck card is Nightmare.
You use Nightmare.
You get 7 Nightmares.
The Top Deck card is Stone Skin.
You get 12 Stone Skins.
You use Nightmare.
Deck order of opponent now is Nightmare, Stone Skin, Nightmare, Stone Skin....
huh?
so you only calculate? not actually test it out? because i'm confused how you're able to replicate 7 nightmares and 12 stone skins and somehow manipulate the stack on your opponent deck like that
someone can explain how is this possible?
I'm not sure, I thought Nightmare only targets creatures...
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The Top Deck card is Nightmare.
You use Nightmare.
You get 7 Nightmares.
The Top Deck card is Stone Skin.
You get 12 Stone Skins.
You use Nightmare.
Deck order of opponent now is Nightmare, Stone Skin, Nightmare, Stone Skin....
huh?
so you only calculate? not actually test it out? because i'm confused how you're able to replicate 7 nightmares and 12 stone skins and somehow manipulate the stack on your opponent deck like that
someone can explain how is this possible?
I'm not sure, I thought Nightmare only targets creatures...
yeah it does :P
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But it stops your opponent from drawing a card, with 8 cards in your hand you won´t draw a card...or I missunderstood it, and this card is lost.
Or was this changed recently?
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This doesn't work anymore. Player hp is now capped at 500.
o.O Not even 520...
I'm glad it was capped, but I also wish it had been 520. 500 is plenty of hp with miracle though.
blarg: