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RoKetha

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Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2141#msg2141
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

I've yet to see a reason in this topic why the system is actually a good idea.

So far I see:
"I spent a week upgrading my deck, so everyone else should have to"
"Grinding keeps people busy" -- So does having a fun, competitive game, it's just now you have to grind to get there first. Eventually I assume you might be able to grind for rare balanced but extremely helpful cards instead of this.
"You don't need upgrades to beat the upgrades, just a specific hard counter to (one or two deck types/the AI) that totally destroys any freedom with making your deck and is worthless if you don't have the luck to face that deck type"
"PvP is flawed anyway, why fix the rest of the game?"

I see nothing about promoting deck variety any more than making one set of cards the only set. I see nothing about giving the game more appeal in the long run, only adding another week of grinding before reaching essentially the same point. I certainly don't see how it promotes deck variety or original strategies other than making half the stuff in the game come with almost no cost to play, and most importantly I don't see how it's attractive to new players.

Perhaps upgrades could be a cool idea, but if so they'd need to completely split people with them off from people who want to actually deal with things like balanced quantum costs, since upgraded decks generally make it so easy to fund anything you want to do unless you face earthquake it's kind of dumb. Or perhaps things just cost too much unupgraded; hard to tell. But I've seen fire dragons enter play before my first turn came, fire tower + photon + cremation got him 10 quanta, so I automatically took 24 damage from that alone with no serious way to counter without upgrades. You see tons of first-turn creatures in general.

I mean, the upgraded pillars alone are so much better it's stupid. Almost all the upgrades are at least two of these: more cost-efficient, faster to play, hit harder, harder to kill. Less than a third actually have a downside. There's potential with Sundials having a different essential function when upgraded, with dragons costing more, with Mind Flayers gaining HP but at a higher cost. There isn't anything positive if you think of this as what it is, a multiplayer CARD GAME, not an MMO or God Killer Grindfest 2010, about suddenly making every Skeleton you generate have 4/4 with no downside, or your Fire Bolts cost 1/3 as much. I don't quite get the point of absolutely forcing players to build a deck that abuses Sundials and shields, fighting the fake gods over and over until they get a lucky draw against an easy one and then win that small chance of a card, just to be able to have cards that are considered standard.

Don't say there's any real strategy involved in beating the gods without upgrades, because there isn't. It's Sundials/Phase Shields/Bone Walls/Gravity Shields or you automatically lose, and you just have to be lucky from there. Forget any kind of denial. Forget dragons other than the broken Phase Dragons, forget clever use of spells besides Parallel Universe and Steal. You play Sundials and shields and either PU, FFQ, or buffs + Consume (which is just AI abuse anyway) and you hope for good draws.

SamSmart

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Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2142#msg2142
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

The upgrade system IS a bad idea.

For one, it is too prohibitive for new players AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS.  I still don't understand how the developers expect for people to grind this game enough to get the 45,000 electrum it takes to buy a 30-card deck of upgraded cards.  Makes it pretty tough to do when, with an un-upgraded deck, you can only win 10-20 electrum per game.  That means that it would take 4,500-2,250 games to get that much electrum.  That's a crapload of games to play with an un-upgraded deck in order to make the basic upgraded deck.

Which leads me to my second problem with this system.  I played the Top 50 decks a few time and many of them are VERY similar.  This makes me concerned that eventually this game will only have a very few "killer decks" that will dominate the game.

That's why I suggest getting rid of the upgrade system and instead use an expansion system.  I think the developers should make a new edition every, say, year.  The cards of the current edition can be bought at the bazaar or won by the spin of a wheel.  Cards of earlier editions cannot be bought but can be won by a wheel spin.  That way, older cards are available to new players but are more difficult to get.  It also means they'll stay in rotation for others to get.

I think this way, we'll have a good balance between new players and old players and new decks and old decks.  With every expansion, new deck strategies will have to be found as a large influx of cards come out, which favors new players.  But new players have a larger card collection to try out new deck strategies from, and so can benefit old players.  But new players can possibly access those old cards by winning at spins of the wheel, which gives an advantage to new players.

I have a few more critiques of this game, but those are the major ones.  I don't write this to bash the game but rather to help develop it into a better game.   :)  And I'll likely keep playing a for a little while longer yet.  No promises though.   :P

Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2143#msg2143
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

I find that the upgrade system is a great way to keep players playing, though the way that people abuse it with farming the False Gods to make massive amounts of money quickly sort of ruins it. It's not hard or expensive to make a god farming deck, and like RoKetha said, the upgrades make it difficult for newer players to compete until they've upgraded a deck of their own, which almost requires them to farm the gods. That's what I'm doing, actually. I noticed the number of players with fully upgraded decks and massive scores, and instead of whining, I built a variation of Scaredgirl's deck and went to town with it.

I think a good way to balance the upgrade system is to simply add more cards to the collection, though that wouldn't nearly be as simple as it sounds. Adding a lot more cards (perhaps three or so to each element) would require a lot of balancing and play-testing, and would probably require another beta version of the game that allows players to input their advice on how to better balance each card against the rest. Perhaps more permanent distruction for other elements, to help balance the abuse of shields. Or more creature control, or perhaps cards that let you pull pillars from the deck. There are numerous ways to improve the game, but designing and programming all of those cards takes a lot of time, especially if there is only one person working on the game (I'm unaware if Zan has a dev team).

All in all (I feel like I'm writing an essay. >.<"), I think that we should stop whining so much about what is or isn't fair for now, since the game is very new, and just focus on playing it for fun, and provide our input and advice to help make the game much better. =D

Uzra

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Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2144#msg2144
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

This is primarily a single player game. PVP has far too many bugs and imbalance/exploit/desync problems.
Bugs can be fixed, cards and elements can be balanced.
All games that can be PVP, are PVP. It's what the players want. Always.

wolfy67

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Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2145#msg2145
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »

So far I see:
"I spent a week upgrading my deck, so everyone else should have to"
So far I see:
"I read the first sentence of each post under mine, decided that it didn't explicitly agree with me, and ignored the rest of that post so I can misinterpret it to prove my point."

I'm not going to waste my time or your eyesight (which is apparently failing) by repeating myself. If you want to validate your opinion you should actually read and comprehend what was said.

/end flame

I originally had a huge post to go with this but I decided to cut it down to barebones and just leave this.

  • Right now upgrades are the only reward for long term play. Completely getting rid of them is a huge slap in the face to everyone who has put in the time and effort to get them.
  • Upgrades are end game rewards. Since the game is still in beta the end game comes quickly. Anyone who has been playing for more than two weeks has probably been farming and has extra coins collected ... so stuff gets upgraded.
  • I play a mono darkness deck. Before I had it upgraded it did well in PvP -- it even devoured a couple fire decks that usually do well against the standard rainbow. Matter of fact the upgraded rainbow decks are the ones that still give me trouble but that's because I made a deck specifically to deal with mono and duo color decks.
  • This is a CCG. Just like every other CCG there is a core of "power" players. They create a few decks that work very well and most players will copy/modify them. There's nothing that can be done about it. It's just the nature of the beast. If you have "no freedom" in making your deck because there are a few generalized- and several counter-decks than it's your lack of imagination holding you back, not the player base.
  • This isn't supposed to be a grind fest? Really? It doesn't matter if it's an electronic version (like this) or a physical version (again MTG as example). You're going to spend tons of time and/or cash getting loads of expansion packs and winning hundreds of games until you get the rares you really want.
  • There are only around 150 cards in the entire game. How much variety can you expect from that? If you want to see some immediate variety then create some new, interesting, competitive decks and list them here or on the wiki. Better yet get your unique deck into the T50. But don't blame me when it gets copied 100 times over.
  • Elements has only been around since May (http://board.flashkit.com/board/showthread.php?t=794854). In three months the PvP has been added from scratch in addition to a few more cards and tweaks. I think Zanz is doing a damn fine job getting new content to us and I can hardly wait for the next stuff.
  • It may be a while before we see a lot of new cards and (hopefully) new quests/tournaments/PvP games. I like upgrade cards which is why I'm hoping for separate PvP; at least two modes with one for new players (limited upgrades allowed, lower rank) and one for long time players (unlimited upgrades, higher rank). This would give a better chance of being equally matched in both skill and deck content.
  • They're called fake GODS. Not weenies, not AI 4, not pushovers that any newbie deck can beat. You aren't supposed to have a normal chance and that's the point. You're supposed to find a weakness and exploit the mess out of it. That's what the rainbow/aether decks do. If you can build a deck that doesn't have to hide behind walls while it sets up an enormous amount of damage then you'll have everyone's new favorite deck.
This game is still evolving and it's going to get much better. Unfortunately I've seen this kind of whining in every multiplayer game I've played from TCGs to MMOs to RTS's. Some new players always feel they're being treated unfairly when they get stomped by a long time player. You aren't the first and won't be the last. But if you think there should be no reward for being loyal to the game you are sorely mistaken. And following your example, I only read the first sentence of your post and decided that's what you are indeed saying.


@ SamSmart

I like your idea of the expansion system. Some of the older cards will get outdated and be used less by the players which is good, but this could lead to more problems.

Example --
Card A from Expansion 1 doesn't get used anymore. New players can't win it in the slots.
Card B from Expansion 9 comes out. Someone who still has a copy of Card A sees that they make an uber combo and puts them together.
The A-B combo stomps the mess out of PvP. A few older players found a copy of Card A in their collection and PvP & T50 are filled with this "unbeatable" deck.
It takes at least 3 weeks for winnable amounts of Card A to make it back into the slots rotation.

The whole time everyone complains about the expansion rotations the same way Upgrades are catching flak now. It's just "unfair" to all the new players so get rid of it -- who cares about the long term guys. I know that isn't what you are saying but it's what we'll all hear.

Geradi

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Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2426#msg2426
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:36 pm »

I think upgrades can be a good feature, but the current system is not very good. Some cards gain to much power after the upgrade. Immortals get an extra attack point, and they cost one more energy. Thats a moderate upgrade. Compare that to an Archangel, Eclipse, Vampire. The upgrades themself have no balance at all.

Which leads me to my second problem with this system.  I played the Top 50 decks a few time and many of them are VERY similar.  This makes me concerned that eventually this game will only have a very few "killer decks" that will dominate the game.
This is a CCG. Just like every other CCG there is a core of "power" players. They create a few decks that work very well and most players will copy/modify them. There's nothing that can be done about it. It's just the nature of the beast. If you have "no freedom" in making your deck because there are a few generalized- and several counter-decks than it's your lack of imagination holding you back, not the player base.
Yes, the few killer setups really are a problem, and no, it's not really inevitable, there are ways to balance things out, making sure every deck have some weak spots. Of course that's not easy, and the power players will always try to find a new setup. But it's possible.


I play a mono darkness deck. Before I had it upgraded it did well in PvP -- it even devoured a couple fire decks that usually do well against the standard rainbow. Matter of fact the upgraded rainbow decks are the ones that still give me trouble but that's because I made a deck specifically to deal with mono and duo color decks.
Start a new mono deck NOW. I guess you get a different result, even though mono darkness is one of the better/best choices for a mono deck. I have mono aether (yes, I'm lazy), I have upgraded 21 of 38 cards, and I'm in trouble everytime I see a sundial.

RoKetha

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Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2427#msg2427
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:36 pm »

Okay, not necessarily every card. If you're playing cards like Sundial, Nova, or any of the dragons, there's a legitimate argument for not upgrading them even if you can. There's also a legitimate argument for upgrading them. If Jon wants to be the absolute best at the game, he'll try both versions of Sundial and see which is better for his deck. On the other hand, if Mike doesn't care enough to hunt Gods all day, he can still play with just the regular Sundial without being at a serious disadvantage. Both Jon and Mike are satisfied with their Sundials.

Every card in the game should be like that.

Granted, it'd take a lot of effort to tweak almost half the cards in the game, but it's worth it if you want to appease both the hardcore and casual fans.
I touched on this in an earlier post, but yes, this is what I was getting at. There's potential in a system that saves developer time by allowing players to "tweak" their cards to serve a slightly different role, and I'd support a system like that if it wasn't tied to god farming (the other bad parts of the current system are the costs of the cards, and the fact that the gods aren't just well-equipped and clever, but actually cheat--so the player is forced to rely on abuse of game mechanics rather than true strategy). But essentially splitting the game into two systems, one of upgrades and one of base cards, while the game is still in its early stages is going to end up making it hell to balance (clearly if a card is balanced before an upgrade, and the upgrade is purely better, it can no longer be balanced) and doesn't really add any more deck combinations other than insofar as it just lowers the cost of everything so Rainbow can do whatever it wants without having quanta issues even more than it already could.

Scaredgirl

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Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2428#msg2428
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:36 pm »

I mean, I really don't see how it benefits the game in any way.

Yeah, I agree. Having upgrades only means more grinding.

One way to solve this problem would be to have upgraded card be more effective BUT also more costly to use. This way upgraded deck wouldn't be so overpowered.

But in the end I don't have a big problem with upgrades because the game itself is amazing.

SebastienB

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Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2429#msg2429
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:36 pm »

I think that if people want to see a decrease in Rainbow decks, someone should design a mono-/duo-/tri-element deck that is specifically made to take down those pesky Rainbows. Then, those that play rainbow decks competetively would be force to design a counter for the rainbow-counter, and then more and more deck ideas would eventually evolve from the constant evolution of strategies to beat the previous "best."
Yes, I had exactly the same idea.  The problem is that the counters might not be good general decks.  I posted a similar solution in a different thread.

Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2430#msg2430
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:36 pm »

I think that if people want to see a decrease in Rainbow decks, someone should design a mono-/duo-/tri-element deck that is specifically made to take down those pesky Rainbows. Then, those that play rainbow decks competetively would be force to design a counter for the rainbow-counter, and then more and more deck ideas would eventually evolve from the constant evolution of strategies to beat the previous "best."

Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2431#msg2431
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:36 pm »

I mean, I really don't see how it benefits the game in any way.

Yeah, I agree. Having upgrades only means more grinding.

One way to solve this problem would be to have upgraded card be more effective BUT also more costly to use. This way upgraded deck wouldn't be so overpowered.

But in the end I don't have a big problem with upgrades because the game itself is amazing.
Some examples of cards that get stronger are Twin Universe and Phase Shield. I think that, since Twin Universe's cost is reduced by one, then perhaps the copied creature could have -1/-1 once it's copied. As for the Phase Shield, the cost could potentially be reduced to four, and then make it last only two turns, instead of three. That's just a couple of examples.

Is the whole upgrade system just a bad idea to begin with? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=239.msg2432#msg2432
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2009, 10:09:36 pm »

I think that if people want to see a decrease in Rainbow decks, someone should design a mono-/duo-/tri-element deck that is specifically made to take down those pesky Rainbows. Then, those that play rainbow decks competetively would be force to design a counter for the rainbow-counter, and then more and more deck ideas would eventually evolve from the constant evolution of strategies to beat the previous "best."
Yes, I had exactly the same idea.  The problem is that the counters might not be good general decks.  I posted a similar solution in a different thread.
I've had some ideas for a couple duo- and tri-element decks that would do very well against Rainbow decks, and they might even work as general decks, too. Problem is that they are still hard to test since I can only use them against the t50 in the trainer. =/

 

blarg: