Imbalanced Cards (SoPa, SoFree, SoI)

[moehrpi]

In the advent of War I want to bring up the exasperating subject of those goddamn OP shitcards.

I am under the impression most people share my sense of imbalanced cards but I want to hear about different opinions and approaches. The creation of a more complex game with additional counters seems - in regard to development - unfeasible. Hence, I'll do what everyone does best: complain and call for nerfs. The purpose of this thread is to address glaring imbalances, discuss in regard to contents as well as course of action and hopefully gain traction for in-game changes. One can hope.

The meta is stable and has proven some cards to be too far on the strong side. Possible nerfs have been mentioned and in part discussed with endless possibilities. Personally, I embrace smaller but more frequent adjustments instead of entire revamps (think hotfixes every other year or so..). Seeing as this is not practical for Elements at the moment I encourage your input.

I hope war is not shardless or I do not have an opening point anymore. Anyway, I firmly believe the point stands for almost every PvP event in Elements.
So, here are the culprits:

• SoPa: personally my biggest concern for war, easy to splash into most decks, renders entire strategies useless
  Proposed changes. My pick is to limit the number of turns it is active to three, non-stackable like Cloak not like Dim Shield, no interaction with Flooding, buff Water creatures for +3|+3 each turn. The cap on turns active is obviously the big one.
• SoFree: stacking SoFree is ridiculous, evasion proves very strong, fast
  Nerf discussion. Change the way it stacks to be multiplicative, 4 Shards would trigger 68% of the time as opposed to 100%; leave evasion untouched. The main focus is on Arena not PvP, still strong but it seems acceptable to me.
• SoI: not a concern for war, OP in combination with SoW
  My take: stat decrease from SoW used by SoI +1|+3 (from +2|+2) unupped and +2|+4 (from +3|+3) upped. I don't see a thematic connection here . Defence does nothing, Immortal Golems get at least 2 ATK less. Casting SoW on a Shard Golem does NOT change and provides +4 ATK. In conjunction with a nerfed SoFree I'd be content. Still I am not too passionate about SoI.
• SoW: annoying but not imbalanced on its own.

This is not a comprehensive list as I might have missed something. I focussed on regularly banned cards and 98% are fine. If you think something is missing, bring it up.


I was torn between posting this in General Discussion for more exposure or Game Suggestions and Feedback where it probably fits best. As I want to spark a discussion about the possibility of implementation, I chose the former. So:

If you feel it is not a problem, please state your opinion. A poll seems to be too much, especially since I do not know what possibilities we have. How big of a movement this needed to be to attract attention, contact zanz and convince him that Elements needs this. All this entails that you are vocal about your thoughts. Is this necessary? What are possible changes? How can we achieve this? More specifically: If we were to reach a consensus is there a chance to see something happen? Has this been tried before and I am too delusional to accept the truth?

tl;dr: nerf Shards plz

[Manuel]

tfw dev is inactive

your nerfs are terrible, from OP (they really aren't OP) to UP; before war there is a thread on talking on how much every card cost and in every other tournament if a shard is op, is banned, if this is your major concern

soi is not even so good lol, u need a deck totally build on them and u need a combo (soi + at least 2 sow) in the initial hand, even making a shard golem in the second turn slow u down too much

do u read every single nerf this card! thread of these three cards?

[worldwideweb3]

tfw dev is inactive

your nerfs are terrible, from OP (they really aren't OP) to UP; before war there is a thread on talking on how much every card cost and in every other tournament if a shard is op, is banned, if this is your major concern

soi is not even so good lol, u need a deck totally build on them and u need a combo (soi + at least 2 sow) in the initial hand, even making a shard golem in the second turn slow u down too much

do u read every single nerf this card! thread of these three cards?

They aren't actually terrible. Sofree nerf is reasonable, so is sopa (you acc raise the stats given to water creatures). But for soi, that's not much of a nerf as it doesnt really change much (tbf, it doesnt need a hard nerf as it's only really viable in upped meta, where you can beat soi decks anyways). Though, i didn't understand what "non-stackable like cloak not like dim" meant..

[moehrpi]

tfw dev is inactive

your nerfs are terrible, from OP (they really aren't OP) to UP; before war there is a thread on talking on how much every card cost and in every other tournament if a shard is op, is banned, if this is your major concern

soi is not even so good lol, u need a deck totally build on them and u need a combo (soi + at least 2 sow) in the initial hand, even making a shard golem in the second turn slow u down too much

do u read every single nerf this card! thread of these three cards?

If you could elaborate why those nerfs are terrible it might even be constructive criticism. And yes this actually is my major concern. I think the idea of OP cards that have to be banned in every tournament is ridiculous. I don't have issues with thematic bans and hand-picked bans on the side to balance the meta. But if a card is banned in, say,  90% of weekly tournaments it is reason enough for me to question it use.

I agree with you on SoI. I don't have enough experience myself. Still, there are some unanswered issues.

tfw dev is inactive

your nerfs are terrible, from OP (they really aren't OP) to UP; before war there is a thread on talking on how much every card cost and in every other tournament if a shard is op, is banned, if this is your major concern

soi is not even so good lol, u need a deck totally build on them and u need a combo (soi + at least 2 sow) in the initial hand, even making a shard golem in the second turn slow u down too much

do u read every single nerf this card! thread of these three cards?

They aren't actually terrible. Sofree nerf is reasonable, so is sopa (you acc raise the stats given to water creatures). But for soi, that's not much of a nerf as it doesnt really change much (tbf, it doesnt need a hard nerf as it's only really viable in upped meta, where you can beat soi decks anyways). Though, i didn't understand what "non-stackable like cloak not like dim" meant..

The suggested nerf for SoFree is actually quite popular. My suggested nerf for SoPa is in part new and therefore very open for debate.
I like how you discern between upped and unupped. I was thinking about upped meta and rashly proposed a change for both variants to keep it coherent.
What i meant by the stacking is that there can be more instances of SoPas active at the same time, like Dials. Multiple shards take up more permanent slots instead of a stack of SoPas (as it is now). It is only a detail to provide more resilience to PC. Each shard has its own counter, only one shard has an effect.

[TheonlyrealBeef]

But if a card is banned in, say,  90% of weekly tournaments it is reason enough for me to question it use.

You could also blame me for those bans and bias against shards, like everyone else that likes shards does

Multiple shards take up more permanent slots instead of a stack of SoPas (as it is now). It is only a detail to provide more resilience to PC. Each shard has its own counter, only one shard has an effect.

For the record, you are still removing them one at a time right now (not the entire stack at once). It's actually a nerf since there is a max amount of permanent slots available.

[moehrpi]

Multiple shards take up more permanent slots instead of a stack of SoPas (as it is now). It is only a detail to provide more resilience to PC. Each shard has its own counter, only one shard has an effect.

For the record, you are still removing them one at a time right now (not the entire stack at once). It's actually a nerf since there is a max amount of permanent slots available.

I think I understood your point, but when SoPa had charges and it occupied only one slot, one instance of PC is enough to clear it. Limited permanent slots might pose a thread, however the risk of quanta manipulation to bar you from playing SoPa you kept in hand is equally great. I thought of it as the stronger alternative. But it comes down to the situation.
The main question is still if charges are a good idea.


I despise SoFree because of Arena and SoPa for its mechanics. I SOLELY added SoI because of you! Don't stab me in the back!

[worldwideweb3]

I think that torb meant that you don't remove the whole stack with one PC, just like sofree can't be removed with one PC. Though I haven't tested it so idk if it's true but it probably is.

[TheonlyrealBeef]

I think that torb meant that you don't remove the whole stack with one PC, just like sofree can't be removed with one PC. Though I haven't tested it so idk if it's true but it probably is.

Exactly, same as Pillars/Pendulums and such. Permanent control reduces the stack size by 1. Except Earthquake does not work on SoPa :p

I SOLELY added SoI because of you! Don't stab me in the back!

SoIs weakness and the reason for banning it align perfectly: it's best used in a dedicated deck. Shard Golem decks fit very few Tournament themes.

[moehrpi]

In that case your needed two counters. One for the number of shards, or how much PC you need, and one for the number of charges. I find it counterintuitive but certainly possible. I regarded it as additional information on how the mechanics work when charges are introduced.

Out of curiosity: Do you think SoI is balanced if SoFree gets nerfed?

[TheonlyrealBeef]

Out of curiosity: Do you think SoI is balanced if SoFree gets nerfed?

Not sure how the balance of these two relate. If anything, it's SoIs interaction with SoW that sets it apart from other rush decks. Reverse Time, shields, antimatter... they would all have worked.