I think upgrade prices are too...

[Scaredgirl]

I've had this argument with people who don't understand why i would spend hours upon hours sanding wood so i can make cabinets and things when i could just buy one from the store or buy a belt sander to make it faster. Simply put some people enjoy the journey and they are content to invest the time to achieve their goal. Even though they are not exactly 'having fun' the whole time they like to watch the progress and the satisfaction of a completed task.

So you want to do hours and hours of boring and tedious tasks that you do not consider even 'having fun', just to watch the progress and feel satisfaction after it's completed? Lol, that's pretty scary.

Like I said, not having grind does not mean there is no content to play. You can easily design a game so that there is no grind but tons of content. Grinding is just something that developers use to save money and time. Sadly some players don't have a problem with it because "this other game I played back in 1974 had MUCH more grind so this grind is ok!".

Maybe I'm crazy but I like my games to be fun. Grinding is not fun for me because it requires no skill and you are basically doing the same thing over and over again.

Even Albert Einstein was against grinding. He said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

[Scaredgirl]

I said you are not always having fun. The process is still enjoyable, organising and finding the best method of doing things can be very fun, although a do admit our current culture of 'want entertainment now' seems to be incapable of patience.

/facepalm

This is not about "wanting entertainment now". There is nothing wrong with wanting better games. Nobody (except apparently you) likes to grind. Most players are ok it grind but it's not like they like it. How could they? Grinding by definition is boring, tedious and requires no skill. If players are content in what the developers give them, nothing will ever change.

This game needs desperately more content. Grinding money is not content, it's just something that addicted gamers like to do. Unfortunately most players are casuals who don't have time or energy to grind 6 hours every time they want to try a new deck. Don't believe me? Ask all those players who quit because there was nothing interesting to do.

[Scaredgirl]

I have no objection to improving this game, nor to dislike grinding. I just felt it was worth mentioning that sometimes additional effort can make the reward even greater. If you don't believe me see how many gamers set themselves horribly difficult challenges that including grinding in order to 'master' a game. Many of them would tell you that the victory would not have been as sweet if they could simply have skipped to the end with the click of a button.

You know it's impossible to discuss you if you don't even read/understand what I am saying.

I never said we should have a "Skip everything and go to endgame" -button. There are more than 2 choices you know?. It's not like it's a choice between grind and "skip content and go to endgame". This "Storyline" approach I talked about works perfectly has has been done in online CCG's before (at least in one).

What Daxx says there is 100% true. Grind is a design choice because of limited resources. Developers know that grind sucks, players know that grind sucks, everyone knows that grind sucks. But small games like this one rarely have a choice. Adding enough content to get rid of grind takes a LOT of resources.

I'm not saying Elements sucks because it has grind. This is a remarkably good game considering it was done by ONE guy. I still have no idea how Zanzarino pulled this one off. Hopefully he has time to further develop this because I personally think he's sitting on a goldmine. Just think what this game could be with 5 times more cards, PvP tournaments, guilds, and yes... NO GRIND!

[WaffleT2]

i agree with scaredgirl in that there is some games that have hours of entertainment with no grinding but i think the problem here is that you are looking for different things.

Like life there are things that are entertainment from beginning to end, these things usually are the appreciation of others efforts like movies and outings. Then there are hobbies which are a form of entertainment that usually contains grinding, these are usually constructing things, for example working with wood or metal to make something.

There is entertainment value in both, some like to have a high level of entertainment throughout their activity and want to skip the boring bits and just have fun. Others enjoy watching their chosen task grow, the continues grinding towards achieving your goal then the satisfaction of seeing it completed.

I've had this argument with people who don't understand why i would spend hours upon hours sanding wood so i can make cabinets and things when i could just buy one from the store or buy a belt sander to make it faster. Simply put some people enjoy the journey and they are content to invest the time to achieve their goal. Even though they are not exactly 'having fun' the whole time they like to watch the progress and the satisfaction of a completed task.

[WaffleT2]

I said you are not always having fun. The process is still enjoyable, organising and finding the best method of doing things can be very fun, although a do admit our current culture of 'want entertainment now' seems to be incapable of patience.

I don't like it when people label what i do as brainwashing from gaming developers, game developers discovered that people are willing to commit to things and see them through to the end even if they stop having fun at one point and its the responsibility of the gamer to know when he has reached that point. But to stop the minute to find a part of the game where you are not having fun? that like giving up at the first challenge because you got annoyed that you couldn't get past it on the first try.

I try to maximise the amount of enjoyment in my life which does sometimes mean taking the duller option in order for the greater payoff in the end.
I shudder to think what the world would be like if people dropped their entertainment the minute they realised they needed to invest time and well as skill in order to receive benefits

Albert Einstein had no opinion of grinding at all. Grinding has a set progress rate and you expect to go forward at that rate. If you are grinding then you are not expecting different results but consistent results, which is the exact opposite of that quote. In grinding you are doing the same thing (matches) in order to get the same result (money)

[WaffleT2]

Yeah i apologise for getting into a argument with Scaredgirl i respect his/her skill but as we have both shown its hard to bite your tongue when you see someone completely misinterpret what you said and then quote it with a counter argument as i have seen her do with several with my quotes and probably what has happened with some of mine. In fact in that last message she appears to be complaining about misinterpreting her message while at the same time misinterpreting my own

The Einstein quote kinda hurt too cause i really like that quote so to see it misused here didn't feel good. Though it was probably meant differently from how it came off. This conversation may have been drastically different in person and has been diluted through the forums limited ability to communicate opinion.

I just want to say that i think elements is a great game. Not perfect but in my opinion its way better then games with more developers and greater funding

[WaffleT2]

Nobody (except apparently you) likes to grind

*sigh* it makes me sad when people refuse to consider the point of another person. I have said that your point is valid in every way and merely wanted to mention that there is other points of view but you seem so secure in your knowledge that you intimately know everyone in this world and that you cannot possibly be wrong so i guess that was pointless.

I absolutely agree that grinding without point is something that only addicted gamers do. Grinding, like everything should only be done when it gives enough joy to the person who is doing it, maybe at the end or maybe in intermediate points when they restructure their grinding methods.

I have no objection to improving this game, nor to dislike grinding. I just felt it was worth mentioning that sometimes additional effort can make the reward even greater. If you don't believe me see how many gamers set themselves horribly difficult challenges that including grinding in order to 'master' a game. Many of them would tell you that the victory would not have been as sweet if they could simply have skipped to the end with the click of a button.

[WaffleT2]

p.s. That Einstein quote was a joke that you and the other guy took seriously. I doubt Einstein was talking about online grinding when he made that one up..

Uhh just wanna say in my defence there that i don't think anyone thought that Einstein was talking about grinding in any shape or form and i knew it was meant to have humor behind it, just that the quote has the exact opposite meaning to what the sentence was implying, ie that grinding can be connected in any way to repeating the action and expecting different results and its weird to see that without satirical implications unless it was misused

Yeah sorry Lynxion your argument is pretty flawed there. You are pointing out things that are not grinding and implying that they are. Its also possible to excuse yourself from the debate without insulting others

I think defining things would have helped if we were going to continue this discussion because i think Scaredgirl has a slightly skewed view on grinding and what part it plays in gaming but if we go that far into depth we will likely only create more confusion and misunderstandings

[Cisco]

Oh bye the way I think the cards are to cheap almost done now with all upgrades goes pretty fast.

[Cisco]

There is a modify button cisco...

But just because there is no grind does not mean that it is "the easy way out." Like SG said, you can have a good game without having lots of grind. Although isn't this game having "immediate fun" the point of this game as well? By playing any level you want at any time ('cept for gods of course) you get immediate gratification while at the same time"grinding."

Lol I know about the modify sigh since it was two diffrent topics I ended up posting twice. And as of now I  get my gratification grinding twords my goal. It can always be better but saying it is non  entertaining for everyone was my  grudge or whatever you may call it.

[jmizzle7]

Man, everybody just chill out... You too, SG. The grind is in place to keep us gamers occupied so zanzarino doesn't have to introduce new content every week. I think when zanzarino introduced the false god decks, he may have overestimated the amount of time it would take us to figure out how to beat them. Since they are so easy now, the grind has gotten shorter, no level of AI is easy, and us gamers are left wanting more, as baby birds with mouths eagerly open to be fed.

[jmizzle7]

Scaredgirl, I know that you and I agree. I wasn't freaking out or anything, I just felt like this discussion was getting a little heated when it really doesn't need to be. And when I read your posts, I saw pretty much the same arguments over and over, largely because of the similarity of others' comments.

I think the OP was arguing that it takes no time at all in getting whatever it is that you need in this game, suggesting that there is no inherent challenge directed to players in acquiring cards or upgrades other than putting in time. Increasing the cost of upgraded cards would only increase the time it takes to get them and would not increase the challenge of the game. I don't support this at all. The argument that more time = more of a challenge is false, and is the reason why I haven't really invested much in this debate, as there really is nothing to argue about within the confines of the OP.

If you really feel this game needs a change to keep players - both new and veteran - interested, I think it is safe to say that a drastic change in the AI, a new level of play, a complete redux of the PvP system, many more new cards, or any combination of these would add sufficient challenge and content to keep players interested.