I think upgrade prices are too...

[jmizzle7]

The quests in Diablo 2 are a very nifty way to blend plot and gameplay, and are not grind. However, Diablo 2 is full of grind. When you complete the quests, only a few of them give you something worthwhile, and the Act quests give you a chance to win something good, with increased chances to win good items if you are wearing good gear. This made it necessary to grind a ton to get your hands on good magic find gear, with which you had to grind a whole lot more to try and find better gear to build your other characters.

Eventually, the folks at Blizzard added extra-plot quests that netted great items 100% of the time. Of course, the most enjoyable and most profitable quest, Ãœber-Tristram, required you to first find three sets of three different keys to open portals to three different destinations, and beat the bosses of each to get an organ. Once you got all three organs, you could open the portal to Ãœber-Tristram and fight the three Lords with insane stats and near endless minions with multiple immunities. At the end, you get a unique charm (Hellfire Torch) for your efforts, with randomized stats. The drop rates for the keys are, of course, random, so you need to farm for them. Because you can end up with a "bad" Torch when all is said and done, farming for perfects became the new grind. Fun stuff, though.

[Scaredgirl]

Lol, I like it how you try to go philosophical just to win an argument.

I'm sorry but you cannot win this one. Sure "boring" is a subjective term but a huge majority of gamers find similar things boring (like fighting AI3 6 hours a day to win Eternity), and what a small majority thinks doesn't matter.

Think about it like this. If my job was to sit in a factory for 8 hours a day and press one button every minute, and do nothing else, most people would agree that is a pretty boring job. Using your logic it would not be boring because it's subjective and some people might not find it boring.

When we identify what is boring, then all we need to do is see if this task is repetitive and required to get to the "next level". If  all those apply, then it is most likely grinding.

Questing is not grinding because even though it can be boring, it is not repetitive.

here are a list of things that can fit into that definition of grinding
most quests, testing out new decks, trying to beat a difficult god, raising you win/lose ratio, posting in a forum, getting gold, getting new cards, building a trainer, checking data to put on the elements wiki page etc

Ok, this is where you are totally wrong. Those are not grinding because either..

1. the situation changes all the time (not repetitive)
2. they are not related to gameplay in a video game
3. they are the reward of grinding, not grinding itself

When you make comments like that I can easily see that you don't even know what grinding is, therefore don't know what you are even talking about.

[Scaredgirl]

I'm not saying D2 had no grind.  I'm saying the quests weren't the grind.  Now if you could find a way to make a bunch of these non-grind quests that gave the rewards of grinding, well, we have a solution.

Yep, that's the point I tried to make earlier. No game ever needs grind, and anyone who says they do need, is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

It would be pretty damn cool if Elements had some kind of storyline quests, one per each card in the game.

[Scaredgirl]

I didn't 'go philosophical' in order to win an argument, but i am a philosophy student so it is possible that my study has influenced my writing style.

Cool. I always wanted to do that but chose boring business studies instead. Fail.

Yes, I can see you study philosophy. I think you are looking this question: "What is grinding?" the same way you would look at "What is the meaning of life?". You shouldn't. Unlike life, grinding is very easy to define.

There is no logical connection between grinding (something that happens inside a videogame) and, as you said, posting on a forum. How on earth can you connect those two? Or grinding and "checking data to put on the elements wiki page"? Wtf?

Using your logic, breathing grinding. I mean we are all inhaling and exhaling all the time in order to get to that next level (growing old), right? Also I find breathing to be very boring and repetitive so does that make it grinding? Am I grinding 24/7 in this videogame of life?

I agree that most of the world finds similar things boring and your extreme example isn't really needed there but admitting that boring is a subjective term is a big step for you because its the first time i've seen you acknowledge that people can have a view other then your own without being "totally wrong".

I do understand that some things are subjective. However most topics I discuss here are not subjective at all. For example if we talk about speed of a deck, that is not subjective. My opinion on a speed of a deck is irrelevant because the speed is what it is.

Please show an example where I have said someone's opinion is "totally wrong".

One other thing we have to take into consideration is that there is a lot of false information on this forum. Many posts are just "totally wrong" as you put it. Some people stay out of it but I tend to correct it when people say wrong/dumb things. That's the way I roll although I know I won't win any fans that way.

If you look at my post history I have been wrong many many times and I have admitted it. Being wrong is part of being human. Unfortunately some people refuse to admit it, and keep on arguing, until at some point they switch to personal attacks. This happens on every single forum out there.

Now that is totally wrong. Questing can be very repetitive.

Yeah, but not repetitive enough to make it grinding.

Quest 1: Go to place A and kill 10 rats
Quest 2: Go to place B and kill 10 wolves

Although that is kind of repetitive, it's not grinding because the situation changes. When I fight False Gods, it's always one of those 11 False Gods, and they will always have the same cards and same AI strategy.

[WaffleT2]

hmm this is where it gets tricky, Scaredgirl is very happy to give us black and white answers as to what is grinding but her own definition is a little grey
"is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive and/or non-entertaining gameplay in order to gain access to other features within the game"

Not not pick on her but Scaredgirl also uses the statement "grinding is by definition boring" a fair amount which is confusing because that implys that grinding is defined by the gamer but then she uses solid examples as to what grinding is which she presents as fact not opinion.

For example quests, many quests are similar or even identical except for requiring you to collect slightly different items so its got the repetitive part and what is or isn't entertaining is based on the user. This means that that anything repetitive can be considered grinding because it has met all the requirements in the definition, repetitiveness, boring to that individual and gains progress in the game.

here are a list of things that can fit into that definition of grinding
most quests, testing out new decks, trying to beat a difficult god, raising you win/lose ratio, posting in a forum, getting gold, getting new cards, building a trainer, checking data to put on the elements wiki page etc

Of course this is an exaggeration but if grinding is to be presented as objective as opposed to subjective then every possibility needs to be included and there are alot of possibilities

[WaffleT2]

I didn't 'go philosophical' in order to win an argument, but i am a philosophy student so it is possible that my study has influenced my writing style.

And i did mention that my list was an extreme version though i accidentally put two mistakes in there "getting gold and getting new cards" Those are the rewards and it was an accident i included them in that list because i should have put the matches that you do in order to get those rewards.

I agree that most of the world finds similar things boring and your extreme example isn't really needed there but admitting that boring is a subjective term is a big step for you because its the first time i've seen you acknowledge that people can have a view other then your own without being "totally wrong".

Questing is not grinding because even though it can be boring, it is not repetitive.

Now that is totally wrong. Questing can be very repetitive.

I did start to cross over into things that aren't video games in an attempt to show how far you can stretch a definition to cover large groups when you are talking subjective over objective but i guess we should keep things directly related to the gameplay in this game because the concept of grinding outside those borders might get a little too advanced and confusing for this discussion.

I can easily see that you don't even know what grinding is

Oh and i was simply extracting points from your definition of grinding, not my own so you can't really make comments on something you haven't even heard

[WaffleT2]

Cool. I always wanted to do that but chose boring business studies instead.

Haha i did a semester of business studies at uni too, thats interesting.

That was a very nice post you seem to have understood what i was trying to say there and that is enough for me.

It is quite likely that i have approached this topic from too philosophical point of view, i have a tendency to hate it when people say absolute statements when really its just a possible conclusion and thats kind of what i was picking on here, pretty much any "this is always true" is going to be false and i get a little caught up when people can't see the point from both sides. As you said "being wrong is part of being human"

Many posts are just "totally wrong" as you put it. Some people stay out of it but I tend to correct it when people say wrong/dumb things

I have a tendency to do that too and pretty much all i was doing here, i saw an absolute statement "grinding is always bad" and couldn't help but point out that there is a glimmer of subjectivity to grinding and therefore that statement cannot be 100% true. This is quite a philosophical stance to take and probably wasn't that productive in this forum but nobody was forced to participate and it was interesting to see peoples opinion on this clearly volatile subject.

[Cisco]

huh grinding l3 has to be the dumbest of all ideas. t50 is easy to beat and nets you more money + a lot of rares as of late.

[Tomsense76]

TLDR:

- A newb, from what I've seen, is not able to just copy a deck and beat FGs. Actually, from what I've seen most newbs can't even read...
- If you're looking to try out a deck, try the trainer.
- If it weren't for hours of mindless grinding and trying out new things, this game would get extremely boring extremely quickly.
(Not that grinding isn't boring, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel...If you could get everything in a few weeks time, what would keep you coming back?)
- Prices for upgrading are fine as is. I've had to go through it, as I'm sure everyone else has. I can't tell you how many times I've had to reface levels 1-3 just for another shot at fighting the FGs for a chance to win an upped card, just so I could sell it to upgrade a card I needed.
- Then you get the poor schmoes like Jmizzzle who grinded L3 until he got enough money to upgrade.


Kids nowadays have no idea what it means to have to work for something....

[YourConcern]

OPPOSITION.

Personally I feel that prices should be based on what the card is, and not just a flat out rate. Sure that means more work for Zan, but not much considering that upgrades are programmed into each individual card.

I despise grinding so I totally disagree with OP (and other posters). I would like the upgrades to cost the same as the original card. This way I wouldn't have to to play with trained 95% of time.

agree with both of you.
although scaredgirls  upgrade cost are a bit too low...
find a rare, sell it and upgrade half your deck...
my suggestion would be 500g for any card costing less than 20, 750 for less than 50, 1000 for less 100, 1250 for over 100, 1500 for rares....

[Tomsense76]

Ja....As of late....
Not so much 2 months after the game opened...

[cdgx]

indeed , grinding plainly s...

People who say it gives any sense of achievement well they're partly right, but only partly.

 I played WoW for 3 years or so (got finally bored:P). Grinding is major part of that game, but well, every idiot can grind, so to really achieve something people grind harder things (like X reputations) but those are still achievable by everyone and their brother and just show time invested (although you need to take part of every aspect of game).

 In latest expansion blizzard introduced achievements, some of those are easy, some of those are harder, some are nearly impossible.

 My main character had for example exalted achievement which was pretty much a lot and a lot of grind, but in my opinion it was worth only a fraction of my one of the server first hardmode pve 25 player fastest drake (consider - only 10 players from server's thousands had them while there were probably a lot more exalteds around).

 One achievement was doable solo (well almost, anyway needed no real commitment or skill, only time) while other was about flawless and fast execution of multiple hardmodes of bosses, which only a percentage of people from server were able to do. And believe me, last 10 seconds of last fight for achieving it, gave so big ADRENALINE RUSH .. which you never get from grinding.

 And that's why grind is bad - everyone can do it eventually, while something that takes brains to achieve can guarantee this specific elitist jerk feeling
(and i am nowadays grinding in this game here while watching a movie in other monitor, almost automatic, no real brainpower needed , definitely not mtg)


about prices - who cares ? would much more like to see mulligan - i lose to manascrews mostly , too big deck i guess