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Offline ChapuzTopic starter

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How would a "coop mode" work in EtG? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64700.msg1266178#msg1266178
« on: July 11, 2017, 06:27:57 pm »
Designing EtG Coop-Mode

A kinda crazy idea came out in the chat when I popped in: implementation of a Coop mode. In other words, 2 players against some tough AI (or why not against other players, but the idea was sketched against AI).
This theorical implementation is the compilation of the opinions that came in in a couple of minutes in the chat, and I would like to hear what other people think about the idea.

Why a Coop-mode?
The main advantage of a coop mode would be to have 2 decks work together when merging them into one would be inefficient quanta-wise. This would bring a bunch of new strategies never used or ever thought about.
Example 1: A player has a deck focused in Voodoo + BB + GP and the other player in Angel spam to heal it.
Example 2: A player focuses in a pure rush and the other one in Cloak, Deflags and other support/denial.
Example 3: A player plays Sparktal when the other one uses a  :death based deck for the death effects.
Example 4: A player focuses on stalling when the other one draws the OTK cards with no worries.

1- Hands and Decks
Each player would have its own hand and deck, so it would draw from its own deck into his hand at the beginning of their turn, naturally.
Each player would be able to see the companion's hand in order to synergize.
Sanctuary would cover both players for a synergized defense.

2- Board
The board would be the same as the current 1v1 style. The players on the same party would share the same board. This would have to force the creatures have an "owner", wich would be the target of spells like Reverse Time.
AoE spells like RoF would target the whole board of the opponent team, just like in a 1v1 match.

3- Health Pool
Here are two options discussed. To have a shared health pool or to have one health pool for each player.
Option 1: Shared health pool. If the players share a health pool (let's say between 100 and 200 HP) then the team would lose when they reach 0 HP.
Option 2: Individual health pools. If the players have individual pools, the AI would have to choose the player it attacks. The player whose HP reaches 0 would have to stop playing and the team would be at a disadvantage under the now "winning" opponent. In a case of 2v2 PVP, this option lets the team "focus fire" against one of the opponents. All in all, it would need more targetting (clicks) and would in my opinion fog the main point of the game.

4- Quanta Pool
There are 2 options about the quanta pool: To make the players share a quanta pool or to have them have independent ones.
Option 1: Shared quanta pool If the players share a quanta pool, it would let them reduce a bad RNG of having too few quanta sources by being the partner able to compensate for it if they have common elements in their decks. It would also affect the balance of some cards like Discord,  Black Hole and Devourer, being Discord and Devourer less effective than in 1v1 and BH more effective (more chance of draining more elements, depending on the opponents' decks). It would also be difficult if the players want to use the same quanta, like the first one fractalling something when the 2ns one wanting to play a phase dragon.
Option 2: Independent quanta pools. Having independent quanta pools lets non-well thought decks to act better independently, but would impede the advantages of the common pool. This is another point of discussion.

5- Opponents
An important factor on this discussion was the opponent that one would face.
Option 1: One super-tough opponent. If a party of 2 players face a single opponent, (like a FG let's say), the opponent can be OPly managed with Sundial, Silence chains, Nightmares... This cards would break the balance no matter how tough is the foe.
Option 2: An opponent with a single deck and multiple turns. If the opponent has multiple turns, then Silence and such would only affect the opponent's first turn and wouldn't be broken. It remains as a viable option of this theorical implementation.
Option 3: 2 decks "designed" to work with each other. This option would be like playing against other 2 players, each one with a different deck that can complement each other. The biggest advantage would be the same advantages of the players: Having a team of 2 decks that probably wouldn't be viable to merge them into one because it wouldn't be quanta-efficient.

Turn Sequence
Another point of discussion was the turn sequance between the players (P) and the AI (A).
Option 1: PAPA "Player 1 - AI - Player 2 - AI - ... ". Imagine that you are one of the players of a team. After you play it starts the foe's turn (or one of the foes' turn with option 3 opponents), then plays your team mate, then the AI again and then you again.
Option 2: PPAA "Player 1 - Player 2 - AI - AI - ... ". I personally think that the flow of the game would be better in this mode. In the case of an option 3 opponent, Silence would block the foe that goes first (I guess that a total Silence chain would have to be blocked for balance issues, so Silence shouldn't affect both opponents), Against an Option 2 opponent, Silence would only affect the first of the foe's turns. A variable of the opponent's difficulty would be the turns in a row it plays.

Any thought of this fun theorical implementation is welcome.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:54:07 pm by Chapuz »
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Offline CleanOnion

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Re: How would a "coop mode" work in EtG? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64700.msg1266179#msg1266179
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2017, 06:37:24 pm »
What would happen to AoE effects such as Rain of Fire and Sanctuary? Would they affect both decks or just the one? (applies to either side of the board)

Offline ChapuzTopic starter

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Re: How would a "coop mode" work in EtG? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64700.msg1266180#msg1266180
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2017, 06:40:55 pm »
What would happen to AoE effects such as Rain of Fire and Sanctuary? Would they affect both decks or just the one? (applies to either side of the board)
The board is share between team mates, so Rain of Fire would affect all the opponents' creatures, just like in a 1v1 match.
Sanctuary would cover the whole party for a synergized defense.
I'm going to explicit this in the OP.
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Re: How would a "coop mode" work in EtG? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64700.msg1266204#msg1266204
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 02:27:31 pm »
If you damaged your own Voodoo Doll in Co-Op, which players would take hits out of the 2 opponents and your ally?
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Offline ChapuzTopic starter

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Re: How would a "coop mode" work in EtG? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64700.msg1266205#msg1266205
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2017, 02:33:29 pm »
If you damaged your own Voodoo Doll in Co-Op, which players would take hits out of the 2 opponents and your ally?
If the health pool is unique (one per team), then it would damage their only pool.
If there were separated pools, then I guess the target I choose (because with 2 individual pools there must be a way to target which opponent you want to attack)
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Re: How would a "coop mode" work in EtG? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64700.msg1266207#msg1266207
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2017, 03:00:51 pm »
If I recall correctly from chat, there was supposed to be just one mark for both players on a team, right?



Also, I believe the idea of ownership must be completely confirmed and defined in every situation before anything else. There are so many situations in which this new idea of ownership could be ambiguous.

As of now, I believe the ownership would work as just "whoever put the card into play or caused the card to become owned".
Ex.
If you played a Giant Frog and it got RT'd, it would go to your deck.
If you stole a Golden Hourglass and had a Salvager on the field, then the Hourglass, when salvaged, would go to your hand.

However, aside from these relatively simple cases, there are more convoluted situations (while unlikely, still something to think about when thinking of a Co-op mode with a shared board).

- Your partner gains a mutant with the ability of Steal. On your turn, you use that ability to Steal an opposing pillar. Whose pillar is that now? Is it your partner's, because his/her mutant was the one that caused the gaining of the permanent? Or is it yours, because you were the one to initiate the action?
- Your partner plays a Dragonfly, and then you PU it. Is the PU'd Dragonfly yours or your partners? A similar situation would be if you used Mitosis on your partner's Dragonfly and used the ability right away.
- Your partner plays a Water Pillar, and you use a Nymph's Tears on the pillar to make a Nymph Queen. Currently, using NT on a different player's pillars (Aka: the opponent's) would result in a nymph belonging to that different player. Thus, who would be considered the owner of the Nymph Queen, your partner because it came from your partner's pillar, or you because it came from your NT?

These are very situational, I know, but it's an interesting thought to have.

EDIT: I realize that most of my examples assume that both players can trigger the ability of a creature on your side of the field, which is another ambiguous point that probably should receive discussion as well.
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Re: How would a "coop mode" work in EtG? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64700.msg1266209#msg1266209
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 04:31:47 pm »
Orange for my take
If I recall correctly from chat, there was supposed to be just one mark for both players on a team, right?



Also, I believe the idea of ownership must be completely confirmed and defined in every situation before anything else. There are so many situations in which this new idea of ownership could be ambiguous.

As of now, I believe the ownership would work as just "whoever put the card into play or caused the card to become owned".

- Your partner gains a mutant with the ability of Steal. On your turn, you use that ability to Steal an opposing pillar. Whose pillar is that now? Is it your partner's, because his/her mutant was the one that caused the gaining of the permanent? Or is it yours, because you were the one to initiate the action? Yours, interpret it as using the card steal
- Your partner plays a Dragonfly, and then you PU it. Is the PU'd Dragonfly yours or your partners? A similar situation would be if you used Mitosis on your partner's Dragonfly and used the ability right away. If you think of PU creating a new copy of it, there is no doubt its yours now (same as puing an enemy creature and having it rewound ends in your deck)
- Your partner plays a Water Pillar, and you use a Nymph's Tears on the pillar to make a Nymph Queen. Currently, using NT on a different player's pillars (Aka: the opponent's) would result in a nymph belonging to that different player. Thus, who would be considered the owner of the Nymph Queen, your partner because it came from your partner's pillar, or you because it came from your NT?
That one is actually tricky, but should be handled the same as mutants imo (actually is there a convention for mutating your partners creatures yet? If there isnt I'd say the new owner should be the owner of the card that was transformed, as in the normal game it would still fight for them)


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