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ElementalGod

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19408#msg19408
« Reply #48 on: January 24, 2010, 03:37:23 am »
I would judge mark as separate from the deck itself, gonna back SG's view.

PuppyChow

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19417#msg19417
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2010, 05:23:33 am »
Quote
Aargh.. this is where my definition fails. Dammit.

That popular poison deck has 12 Water cards, and 18 Death cards, you can't get much more duo than that. However using this new definition, that deck would be a mono?

That's not good.

I'll get some sleep. You guys fix this. I'm expecting a perfect solution when I wake up :)
Did you even read my suggestion?

Mono: One type of pillar AND cards of different elements must have 0 cost or cost other quantum.
Duo: Two types of pillars OR one type of pillar and (different) mark fuels cards that cost the mark's quantum.
Trio: Three types of pillars OR two types of pillars and (different) mark fuels cards that cost the mark's quantum.
Rainbow: Uses quantum towers or supernovas to play more than 3 types of cards.

Your poison deck would fall under duo with those classes. Perfect solution. Not quite as elegant, but still not very complex.

In fact, that 500 word essay I wrote? That was all to point out the problem you just stated :P.

Scaredgirl

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19449#msg19449
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2010, 01:56:52 pm »
Quote
Aargh.. this is where my definition fails. Dammit.

That popular poison deck has 12 Water cards, and 18 Death cards, you can't get much more duo than that. However using this new definition, that deck would be a mono?

That's not good.

I'll get some sleep. You guys fix this. I'm expecting a perfect solution when I wake up :)
Did you even read my suggestion?

Mono: One type of pillar AND cards of different elements must have 0 cost or cost other quantum.
Duo: Two types of pillars OR one type of pillar and (different) mark fuels cards that cost the mark's quantum.
Trio: Three types of pillars OR two types of pillars and (different) mark fuels cards that cost the mark's quantum.
Rainbow: Uses quantum towers or supernovas to play more than 3 types of cards.

Your poison deck would fall under duo with those classes. Perfect solution. Not quite as elegant, but still not very complex.

In fact, that 500 word essay I wrote? That was all to point out the problem you just stated :P.
Yes, I read it. To me it makes perfect sense and is closest to a "perfect" solution that we can come up with. I was just looking for something more simple. Something that everyone can understand without reading the the sentence 5 times. When I read something like "cards of different elements must have 0 cost or cost other quantum" or "(different) mark fuels cards that cost the mark's quantum", at first it's a real WTF moment. And I know Elements. I can only imagine how newbies react to it.

I doesn't really matter how pro gamers define these decks when they talk about them in chat, etc. I only care about how we define them on this forum and on wiki. and for those two places it help to have a clear and simple definition.

72% of voters said mono deck has "Cards of only one element". Mono = one. When your average newbie starts a new thread about his new deck, and reads that definition, I can guarantee that he won't know where to put it, which means confusion and more work for moderators.

Like I said, your definition is how it should be. If you have a simpler way of defining it, great we'll go with that. If not.. I don't know what we're going to do. :)


@SG: I understand you were responding to what I originally said, and I get that you can't read minds. I don't expect you to. But you were stuck on what I originally said. I merely quoted myself to show you that I clarified what I meant later, because you either missed it or didn't read it. It's not that big a deal, but ask questions next time if something is unclear instead of jumping to conclusions. :)
We've had a similar discussion before. You said something, I quoted you, and then you started a long explanation what you really meant, which totally contradicts what you actually said. This makes it very difficult to have a discussion because words have a meaning and you cannot just say anything and later say something totally different. It reminds me of politics and spin doctors: "No, what the president really meant was that.."

This is what you said about a deck with 30 entropy cards: "If the deck also packs supernovas to fuel mutant abilities, then it is a rainbow"

That's a direct quote from you. If I after reading that, assume you are talking about a rainbow deck, how is that "jumping into conclusions"? If you didn't mean rainbow, then why did you use the word rainbow?

It's like if you say you have a blue car (when you actually have red one) and then the next day accusing me of jumping into conclusions when I assume you have a blue car.

Here's a rule of thumb:

You think a deck is a rainbow -> Say it's a rainbow
You don't think a deck is a rainbow -> don't say it's a rainbow

It's really that simple.

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19457#msg19457
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2010, 02:59:07 pm »
Mono: 1 pillar type, cards that have 0 or "any quanta" cost.
Duo: 2 pillar types OR 1 pillar type + different mark.
Trio: 3 pillar types OR 2 pillar types + different mark.
Rainbow: Quantum pillars and/or Supernovas to play 3+ card types.

How's that for simple?
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PuppyChow

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19493#msg19493
« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2010, 05:21:04 pm »
Mono: 1 pillar type, cards that have 0 or "any quanta" cost.
Duo: 2 pillar types OR 1 pillar type + different mark.
Trio: 3 pillar types OR 2 pillar types + different mark.
Rainbow: Quantum pillars and/or Supernovas to play 3+ card types.

How's that for simple?
I was just about to suggest that :). Here's what I was going to say though...

If a deck has ALL one card type (all air, all earth...), that deck is MONO.
If not, then count the number of types of pillars. Marks count as a single pillar.
Rainbows use quantum pillars and/or novas as the main source of quantum.

It's different in that with yours, the common L3 grinder of 6 graboids, 6 shriekers, 1 short sword, and earth pillars with time mark, it would be a duo. With my new suggestion, it would be a mono.

Mono: 1 pillar type OR cards are all one element.
Duo: 2 pillar types OR 1 pillar type + different mark (if cards aren't all one element).
Trio: 3 pillar types OR 2 pillar types + different mark.
Rainbow: Quantum pillars/novas as main quantum source.

Scaredgirl

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19532#msg19532
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2010, 06:15:55 pm »
Mono: 1 pillar type, cards that have 0 or "any quanta" cost.
Duo: 2 pillar types OR 1 pillar type + different mark.
Trio: 3 pillar types OR 2 pillar types + different mark.
Rainbow: Quantum pillars and/or Supernovas to play 3+ card types.

How's that for simple?
I like it.

I would change it to this:

Mono: 1 pillar type with any mark (may have 0 cost cards from any element)
Duo: 2 pillar types (or 1 pillar type + different mark and cards with a cost of 1+ from that element) :)
Trio: 3 pillar types (or 2 pillar types + different mark)
Rainbow: Quantum pillars and/or Supernovas (+ cards from 4 or more elements)

I'm not 100% sure if it's better or not but it's easier for me to understand at least :)

EDIT: NOooooooo.. that's not right.


I was just about to suggest that :). Here's what I was going to say though...

If a deck has ALL one card type (all air, all earth...), that deck is MONO.
If not, then count the number of types of pillars. Marks count as a single pillar.
Rainbows use quantum pillars and/or novas as the main source of quantum.

It's different in that with yours, the common L3 grinder of 6 graboids, 6 shriekers, 1 short sword, and earth pillars with time mark, it would be a duo. With my new suggestion, it would be a mono.

Mono: 1 pillar type OR cards are all one element.
Duo: 2 pillar types OR 1 pillar type + different mark (if cards aren't all one element).
Trio: 3 pillar types OR 2 pillar types + different mark.
Rainbow: Quantum pillars/novas as main quantum source.
My brain hurts.

Damn you Delreich for starting this thread. :)

PuppyChow

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19533#msg19533
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2010, 06:18:06 pm »
Your revision has the same effect as mine. If you find yours is easier to understand, go for it  ^-^.

Scaredgirl

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19594#msg19594
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2010, 09:04:22 pm »
I went back to the drawing board and started from scratch.

We have been concentrating too much on quantum usage. Is a deck built of quantum usage? No. Is there a 30 quantum usage limit for each deck? No. Deck consists of cards.

So.. what if we based the definition on card amounts and primary, secondary and tertiary elements? Like this:

Primary element = 13+ cards
Secondary element = 7-12 cards
Tertiary element = 1-6 cards*
*I chose the number 6 as the "magic number" because of the 6 card limit.


:aether Mono: 1 primary element. No secondary elements. Up to 6 cards from any other elements (optional).
:aether :air Duo: 2 primary elements OR 1 primary element and 1 secondary element.
:aether :air :water Trio: Total of 3 primary, secondary or tertiary elements.
:aether :air :water :death Rainbow: Total of 4 or more primary, secondary or tertiary elements.


Mark has no effect on deck category.


P.s. this idea has not been thoroughly thought out. It's still under construction and might contain massive epic failure.

Offline Kamietsu

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19598#msg19598
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2010, 09:08:52 pm »
I went back to the drawing board and started from scratch.

We have been concentrating too much on quantum usage. Is a deck built of quantum usage? No. Is there a 30 quantum usage limit for each deck? No. Deck consists of cards.

So.. what if we based the definition on card amounts and primary, secondary and tertiary elements? Like this:

Primary element = 13+ cards
Secondary element = 7-12 cards
Tertiary element = 1-6 cards*
*I chose the number 6 as the "magic number" because of the 6 card limit.


:aether Mono: 1 primary element. No secondary elements. Up to 6 cards from any other elements (optional).
:aether :air Duo: 2 primary elements OR 1 primary element and 1 secondary element.
:aether :air :water Trio: Total of 3 primary, secondary or tertiary elements.
:aether :air :water :death Rainbow: Total of 4 or more primary, secondary or tertiary elements.


Mark has no effect on deck category.


P.s. this idea has not been thoroughly thought out. It's still under construction and might contain massive epic failure.
Hmm...I don't know. Seems a bit overly complicated to me.
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PuppyChow

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19600#msg19600
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2010, 09:10:43 pm »
Now THAT makes MY brain hurt  ???.

What about decks that have one primary and one tertiary? Like an earth/time with 6 graboids, 3 shriekers, 5 quicksands, 5 rewinds, and 11 earth towers with time mark? That would normally be a duo deck, but based on those definitions, it would be a mono.

Offline teffy

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19624#msg19624
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2010, 09:43:45 pm »
This is too complicated for me. I want to say that a deck is Mono, Duo,Trio, Rainbow without knowing all cards of it.
If I play against an opponent, I will not see every card (in most cases).
And i don't want to count cards. What about deck size ? Does that play a role ?

I would only look at pillars/mark, cause I see all the colors of them in most games.

I say:
1 pillar type, same mark: Mono-Deck

1 pillar type, different mark: Duo Deck
2 pillar type, mark one of these 2 colors: the "true" Duo Deck.
Both count as Duo-Deck

2 pillar type, mark different: Trio-Deck
3 pillar type, mark one of them: the "true Trio-Deck.
Both count as Trio- Deck.

Quantum Pillars + normal pillars: ignore Quantum Pillars and use categories above.
Decks with many Quantum Pillars and few normal pillars are seldom (do they exist?)
Only Quantum Pillars: Rainbow Deck.

PuppyChow, I think your deck is something between Mono Deck and the "true" Duo Deck with two kinds of pillars (not Quantum Pillar)
I would call it a Duo-Deck, even if its not the "true" Duo-Deck.

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Scaredgirl

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Re: How do you define a "mono" deck? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=2315.msg19629#msg19629
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2010, 09:53:37 pm »
Hmm...I don't know. Seems a bit overly complicated to me.
It's not that complicated if there were these concepts of primary, secondary and tertiary in the game. Unfortunately they aren't in the game so yeah.. it can be complicated :)

I'm still working on this and when it's ready it's going to be awesome :)


What about decks that have one primary and one tertiary? Like an earth/time with 6 graboids, 3 shriekers, 5 quicksands, 5 rewinds, and 11 earth towers with time mark? That would normally be a duo deck, but based on those definitions, it would be a mono.
Yes, using this definition, that deck you have there would be a mono.

Basically all mono decks can take 6 extra cards from any element they choose. Because lets face it, that deck over there is an earth deck. It has 5 rewinds for extra spice but that's not enough to call it earth-time-duo.

This idea of mine needs a lot of work and might never work but the more I think about it the more I believe that it's the cards we need to look at, not quantum production. Cards are what make the deck.

I'll try to make this easier by getting rid of that tetriary element.

 

blarg: