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Offline neuroleptics

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg526692#msg526692
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2012, 06:13:56 am »
I agree that sometimes the chat lacks hospitality. More often than not i choose PM. That's why even if my name appears, i don't seem active. Anyhow, my opinion towards Etg is fairly good. I love the community, but if somehow some rude, arrogant people appear, i don't care and i would try to avoid, least i get into conflict with them. I chose not to be offended. Why should i be anyway?
And i apologize for some of my words or actions that might have irritate some. I know i'm in no position to judge others but as for PvP, i was more often than not flamed by people calling me noob and other gross words. It was no fun playing and earning a mere 100++  :electrum yet have to endure that kind of behaviour but that's life. Can't expect all to have good manners after all.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 06:15:34 am by neuroleptics »
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Offline juan_de_diablo

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg526749#msg526749
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2012, 07:35:32 am »
A lot of what juan says (and unfortunately, had to experience) is true. Most people simply do not realize that even passing comments can leave a bad impression on newer players, let alone people acting like Pine was.

As I told another fairly respected member after one such comment a day later, which was out of context, these people could be the next young and eager staff member, like I once was. Or the next game artist (which did happen recently), or respected card designer, etc.

Being hostile towards the people who actually act mature from the start gets us nowhere. Those could be our future.

I'd also like to apologize to juan directly for not doing enough to stem the argument in chat, and inadvertently making it worse in the end. But as I was the only other person involved in that conflict, it seems the implication is that you now have a very negative opinion of me as well, which is something I would like to fix. PM me if you want to talk about it.

As for kong chat has improved recently, but it has been very bad at times. For much of our history, kong's negative reputation has sustained, because many of their respected players migrate over here eventually. At this point, though, we're just as bad.

I, too, will admit that I said things in a manner that escalated the situation, and not to beat a dead horse, but I have no hard feelings towards you. Thanks for reaching out. I'm looking forward to moving on.
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Offline memimemi

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg526759#msg526759
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2012, 08:06:33 am »
juan_de_diablo; ddevans96:

This is why I like the forum here.  Sure, it may not be perfect (whatever that means), but it is hospitable and welcoming.  Bummer that peeps are having a rough time in chat - for what it's worth, on the rare occasions I'm in there (usually begging CL matches), it's been more silly than rude.

Basically, the analogy that holds for me is that Chat is like the card tables at your local games shop; anybody can (and will) say whatever is on hir mind, regardless of consequences or social awkwardness.  The Forum is more like a fanzine - the content isn't always deep or meaningful, but at least there's time to re-read and edit whatever one may have to say, before just spitting it out.

The problem, it seems, is that our card tables are driving away polite gamers, which in turn leads to fewer new voices for the 'zine, which leads to the current perceived stagnation.

The solution?  Once again, I propose that a group of vets volunteer to not so much moderate the chat (we have mods already, doing a pretty decent job), but rather to set an example worth following.  Take the extra second or two to decide whether to hit Enter, before saying anything in haste.  If a newb is asking a question you've already heard >9000 times today, provide a link to your forum post that explains the answers, rather than proclaiming a quick "STFU NEWBZOR!!!!"

All it takes is a few good people in any room, to sway the behaviour of the whole group towards polite, reasoned conversation.  And, as a side bonus, more new players can be drawn to the forums, thereby helping to elevate the level of discussion. 

Quote from: ddevans96
Being hostile towards the people who actually act mature from the start gets us nowhere. Those could be our future.

This, a thousand times over.

If any mods would like to take on the task of organizing volunteers to help new players, in chat and in PvP, feel free to sign me up - hopefully, I'm not alone in thinking that it's far from too late to change things for the better with a little bit of effort, and a lot of (Shards of) Patience.

Quote from: juan_de_diablo
I, too, will admit that I said things in a manner that escalated the situation, and not to beat a dead horse, but I have no hard feelings towards you. Thanks for reaching out. I'm looking forward to moving on.

This warms my blackened little heart.  It's almost as if two civilized people were settling their differences in a calm, polite manner.  Except, this is the internet, so I know it must be some sort of scam...  ;) ::)
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Offline regen2k9

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg534180#msg534180
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2012, 03:39:26 pm »
This thread has listed lots of ways to improve the forum and the community, and stop its decline (or its perceived decline).  Notable among these have been getting a kong re-feature, advertising, etc.  However, while discussion on this topic is valued, what we really need is action.  Can we either email Zanz about it, or funnel our own funds from ads into a re-feature or ads, etc.?  I'm not sure if Zanz deals with forum ads and the income received from said ads or if the mods do.
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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg534182#msg534182
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2012, 03:51:52 pm »
This thread has listed lots of ways to improve the forum and the community, and stop its decline (or its perceived decline).  Notable among these have been getting a kong re-feature, advertising, etc.  However, while discussion on this topic is valued, what we really need is action.  Can we either email Zanz about it, or funnel our own funds from ads into a re-feature or ads, etc.?  I'm not sure if Zanz deals with forum ads and the income received from said ads or if the mods do.
As far I as I know anything involving Elements outside of the forums/fanworks has to go through Zanz first, except he's gone for the time being. The only real method we have of direct contact to Zanz at this point is probably from vrt and probably Higurashi/Xeno.

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg1005921#msg1005921
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2012, 06:22:42 pm »
Ringing in at early October. Any solutions had?
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Offline KeeperofDreams

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg1006076#msg1006076
« Reply #66 on: October 08, 2012, 05:46:49 am »
Hello, I was bored this weekend and decided to check how things were going on with this game and community.

You see, I quit a while back, for many of the reasons expressed in this thread and many others.  I thought I would give the game another chance; but, here I can tell my story and see if any lessons can come of it.

A while back, before there was an arena, I started playing this game.  My first thoughts were, 'wow, this is pretty cool', a lot of potential here.  I created an account, messed around for a bit, got a feel for the game.  I was a little sad at how the PVP was not immediately accessible, and find myself having to grind AI3; got bored and left for a bit.  But it created an itch, I came back a few weeks later,  I left that account for dead and created another.  I decided that really, what I needed was to get enough of the cards, the grind would be just practice, and then I could play for real in the PVP.  So, I selected the darkness deck, and built my first deck, 10 pillars, 4 dragons, 4 devourers, 4 steals, 4 drains, 2 nightfalls, a shield, and vampire dagger.  At the time, I ran AI3 for a couple hundred games with a 100% win rate off that.  I thought I was some kind of genius.  (The deck only gets about a 95% win rate now with the AI improvements).  So I got nearly every unupped card, and I found only a few usable combinations, about 20 capable winning decks, and that was it.  I was sad.  I tried to take those unupped cards and I tried a FG, I lost very quickly,  so I went to the Top 50, and lost very quickly, I tried AI4, and lost very quickly.  Now, how was I to figure out how to get all these upped cards.  I didn't want to 'cheat' I didn't want to look at other people's decks.  Was I to grind AI3 this whole time???  I was pissed, I reset my account and walked away for what I thought was forever. 

And then something interesting happened, thanks to cookies, google figured out I played this little game called elements, and when I went to youtube a few weeks later, I saw a video on a partial upgraded deck knocking out FG left and right.  All of a sudden it dawned on me, I didn't need to upgrade all these expensive cards to necessarily get to all of them.  So I go back, fire up the account again, pick my shadow deck, grind another couple hundred times, built that deck and tried against the false gods, and lost, and lost, and lost.  It dawned on me, it must be outdated.  That the game had changed.  But it turned into a great AI4 grinder.  So I played AI4, over and over and over again.  Finally, I got sick of it, but being my third time at this game, and also having borrowed someones deck, I decided to go ahead and check the forums for other decks.

I found the forums to be fun, I contributed to various sections, ran some experiments, got some good deck ideas, started to play around a bit.  Arena came out, and I found it to be much better than the top 50 thing, along with some new shards.  I was really into the game, playing every day for the 10 to 15 games I could.  I started getting upgraded cards at an ok pace.  I found the upgraded cards made a very different game with hundreds of deck combinations that worked.  But I found a few things bothersome.  First, what first seemed like a good idea, earning rares in arena, turned bad.  I couldn't play as much as others, and I found myself quickly outpaced with what were originally extremely over powering shards.  How was I to play in the arena except for bronze and silver without the shards, but I can't get the shards because I don't have the shards.  What a vicious cycle that is.  I also found the rate of new cards and updates to be very slow.  I inquired about it and found that this is Zanz's project and there are no other developers.

So, being a developer, dba administrator, a once AI specialist, and a musician.  I thought at least one of these skills could be used.  I thought, hey, maybe they could use me.  I went to the chat.  There I was treated as an out cast.  Any comments or questions I posted were largely ignored.  After a 5th time I finally got Xeno to reply, although kindly, that my skills are not wanted because Zanz is using this as a portfolio project.  I hunted down Zanz anyways waiting everyday in chat.  Once in a while I would try to join in the conversation, only to be treated rudely, so I figured, eh just a bunch of kids, I really don't care.  Finally, I got Zanz to reply, and he told me to get lost.  I continued to play though, thinking there was something of an end here, at least, the forum community is nice.  But the game just drug on, I made a few decks that won very consistently in PVP2 and found not many people played it.  I thought I might join one of those tournaments, at least week how much commitment it took.  Then after a significant forum crash, I never could log in.  It said my username didn't exist, even though I clearly could go to the fields where it did.  If I tried to re-register though, it would say may email was already in use.  Without the community, there was no point to this game anymore.  So, I left.

I came back this weekend, just to see, mainly because I was bored and stuck inside.  I found that although I still can't get my original user name registered 'Keeper', I at least, could get a new name registered.  So I did.  I played today away, and browsed the forums, where I came across this.  I didn't reply though right away.

But here you have it, the truth is, the game has become inaccessible to new players.

1.) The unupped cards lend to very limited game play.  Because of this, the main reason why someone new might want to play this game, the PVP, it's pretty lame.
2.) The grind is horrible, a lot of the more experienced users might not think so, but a lot have not had to grind like a new person would, instead, it's micro grinding whenever new cards come out, or just very quickly purchase them if they are in the shop since some have a lot of money just laying around.   It is only worse with 'improving the game' because AI improvements and balance tweaks make it even hard to grind.  I am certain everyone who was around the first couple days SoSas came out, it was not hard to grab six in the arena, then grind the FG to death with easy kills, until Zanz balanced that out.  It even adds insult to injury to have a bunch of rares you can only get by beating a bunch of other people with rares or painfully grind bronze for a month or two, then grind FGs to get them upgraded.
3.) Even upgraded, the deck variations are limited, in other words not enough cards in general.
4.) Even once you get a bunch of upgraded cards, no one plays PVP2 much, which defeats the main point of any online game, to play with or against other players.
5.) Instead, you have to do tournaments, which, BTW, is found only in the forums and not part of the main game.
6.) The chat community which is part of this community is rude at best.
7.) Any help outside of Art for this game is rebuffed.

So there you have it, we have it, the game is inaccessible to newer players, to reset the game to something that is;would alienate the community that is keeping it alive and is more than zanz can handle in short order, any attempts to help are rebuffed.  The main focus of the game is not what is should be, the answer is to eliminate upped cards and instead have 1000s per element, eliminate the concept of rainbow as we know it, and then you have a game people can PVP, offer tournaments in the game, keep the arena but the 4 leagues, should match a players score, the PvE element should be AI3 and FG only outside the Arena.  Then you will have a living game, but as it is, the only way to excel at this game, is to go to the forums, find the best decks currently available for certain objectives (which btw, defeats the creative element of a ccg) and click through a whole bunch of times till you are sick and leave. 

I really had hopes for this game, you can tell because of the number of times I came back, I never wanted to give up on this.  However, I played today, I tried to get a few upgraded shards, I'm missing some wisdoms and freedoms still.  I got crushed in Plat and Gold.  Decided to PVP2, got bored sitting around.  Grineded Bronze for a while, got a couple unupped shards.  Grinded FG, got a couple upgraded cards, and here I am.  In the same spot, going to leave again, and check to see if some miracle happens to this game.

/rant
« Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 05:50:22 am by KeeperofDreams »

Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg1006092#msg1006092
« Reply #67 on: October 08, 2012, 06:39:11 am »
Spoiler for Hidden:

There I was treated as an out cast.  Any comments or questions I posted were largely ignored.  You being ignored =/= you being treated as an outcast.  A lot of the time people are ignored in chat, either because no one is looking at chat or no one has the answer or people are busy doing other things.  It's silly to assume poor intentions over something so minor.

After a 5th time I finally got Xeno to reply, although kindly, that my skills are not wanted because Zanz is using this as a portfolio project.  I hunted down Zanz anyways waiting everyday in chat.  Finally, I got Zanz to reply, and he told me to get lost.  This is Zanz's game.  If you hunted him down even after being explicitly told your skills weren't going to be wanted, I don't know what you were expecting.

Then after a significant forum crash, I never could log in.  It said my username didn't exist, even though I clearly could go to the fields where it did.  If I tried to re-register though, it would say may email was already in use.  Without the community, there was no point to this game anymore.  So, I left. This sounds like the old forums crash.  The community moved to these new forums back in spring/summer of this year. 

But here you have it, the truth is, the game has become inaccessible to new players.

1.) The unupped cards lend to very limited game play.  Because of this, the main reason why someone new might want to play this game, the PVP, it's pretty lame.
While I'd agree that the competitive unupped metagame is fairly stale, the amount of decks you can use that are somewhat viable, and viable for PvP1 at least are through the roof.  I cannot believe that you only found 20ish decks that worked. 


2.) The grind is horrible, a lot of the more experienced users might not think so, but a lot have not had to grind like a new person would, instead, it's micro grinding whenever new cards come out, or just very quickly purchase them if they are in the shop since some have a lot of money just laying around.   It is only worse with 'improving the game' because AI improvements and balance tweaks make it even hard to grind.  I am certain everyone who was around the first couple days SoSas came out, it was not hard to grab six in the arena, then grind the FG to death with easy kills, until Zanz balanced that out.  It even adds insult to injury to have a bunch of rares you can only get by beating a bunch of other people with rares or painfully grind bronze for a month or two, then grind FGs to get them upgraded.
Grinding bronze is not so painful.  I joined late last year after the earliest shards had already been implemented, and I was nowhere near an upgraded arena grinder when the new shards came out.  I ground bronze with monodark to get my SoRs, used those SoRs for Instosis and then I had more than enough money to make a good SNbow for bronze/silver grinding.  By the way, pretty much any SNbow works for bronze or silver - no shards necessary. 


3.) Even upgraded, the deck variations are limited, in other words not enough cards in general.
More cards, sure, but I think you're selling the deck variations short here and unupped.

4.) Even once you get a bunch of upgraded cards, no one plays PVP2 much, which defeats the main point of any online game, to play with or against other players.
PvP2 is more for occasional fun.  Most of the fun in the game from longtime forum players comes from playing Tournaments, PvP Events, Trials and War.

5.) Instead, you have to do tournaments, which, BTW, is found only in the forums and not part of the main game.
There's a link to them at the bottom of the Redeem Code section, but I agree that it would be great to have a more direct link.  Unfortunately, as this is an in-game thing there's nothing we can do about it.

6.) The chat community which is part of this community is rude at best.
I agree that chat is not friendly towards newcomers.  However I would also argue that it is not rude either.  Still, I do not know when you joined, and if you joined before I did the chat environment could have been different.

7.) Any help outside of Art for this game is rebuffed.
We'd all like to see more cards, more stuff in general.  The only way that's going to happen is if this stops being a portfolio project for Zanz, and I don't think that's going to happen.  We as a community have little to no power over Zanz - the only thing we could possibly do would be a mass quitting of the game to draw attention, and even that would be insignificant compared to the amount of Kong/Other users out there.

The main focus of the game is not what is should be What should be the main focus of the game?
the answer is to eliminate upped cards and instead have 1000s per element Thousands of balanced cards per element would require an actual corporation behind the game instead of one person, and even then it's an incredibly difficult task.
eliminate the concept of rainbow as we know it Why?

keep the arena but the 4 leagues, should match a players score, They already do..? Not sure what you're saying here
the PvE element should be AI3 and FG only outside the Arena.  Any reason for taking away training AI0,1,2 and half-bloods (AI4)?

the only way to excel at this game, is to go to the forums, find the best decks currently available for certain objectives (which btw, defeats the creative element of a ccg) and click through a whole bunch of times till you are sick and leave.  This seems quite funny to me because the best PvP decks (unupped at least) are not on the forums at all.

I got crushed in Plat and Gold.  Platinum and Gold are supposed to be very hard.  Platinum especially is the hardest decks in the game.  It's not supposed to be easy to beat.



Offline kev

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg1006158#msg1006158
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2012, 02:07:18 pm »
snip
Ugh.  Always sad to see players capable of completing sentences leave.  The well thought out post is appreciated, Keeper.

A lot of what you said is true.  This is all zanzarino's project and as much as the players would like to help, we cannot.  There is fun to be had in the game as is, though it's not as easy for new players to find as I'd like.  The answer lies in Tournaments, PvP Events, and Leagues.  It's a shame the forum moved just as you were about to get involved there.  You might have a very different perception of the game.  :(

Offline Elbirn

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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg1006174#msg1006174
« Reply #69 on: October 08, 2012, 03:35:39 pm »
The mindless grind is a big problem. My play sessions of this game typically end when I look at myself endlessly grinding silver and think "....What the **** am I doing. I'm using a deck that someone else made (that I was able to put together by mindlessly grinding AI3 for thousands of games to put together my current worth) to farm for a maybe 15% chance of getting a rare card, to make a better deck, to farm more. For no reason." I don't even know how much time I've spent on this game so far, and I still am nowhere near having all the cards.

Starting this game, the main objective seems to be to complete your card collection. While it can maintain interest at first, it can turn off anyone without endless patience or an extreme love for CCG. It also, for some, turns into a never ending, boring grind using decks created by other people, simply because there is no way to make a more efficient deck. The best combinations possible were made years ago. And that lack of useful creativity sucks.

The only way to fix that though would be to either add more cards, or give all players all the cards from the get go. The latter would
1. Eliminate the CCG aspect of this game.
2. Infuriate all of the veterans who spent (and are spending) hundreds of hours on this game.
3. Be a terrible idea.

Adding moar cards would create an influx of activity, creativity in deck building, and fun for all. But would make the grind for newbies longer.

There's nothing that we can really do about all of that though. It's just the way the game is, and if people don't like that, then they won't play. If they do, then they'll stay and hopefully discover the forums.

Speaking of which, Zanz, hear my prayer: Add a more noticeable forum/tournaments link in EtG.
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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg1006320#msg1006320
« Reply #70 on: October 08, 2012, 11:00:00 pm »
The easy way would be increasing money won in each game while decreasing upgrade cost. Then, it will remains a challenge while not this hard.
Looking back, i don't know how could i own all my cards now either. It all kinda just fall into places.
Then again, i was helped by T50 farm back then...
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Offline treebeard xiii

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  • treebeard xiii is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.treebeard xiii is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.treebeard xiii is a Blue Crawler starting to think about his first run.
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Re: Forum activity https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=42181.msg1006327#msg1006327
« Reply #71 on: October 08, 2012, 11:12:57 pm »
The easy way would be increasing money won in each game while decreasing upgrade cost. Then, it will remains a challenge while not this hard.
Looking back, i don't know how could i own all my cards now either. It all kinda just fall into places.
Then again, i was helped by T50 farm back then...
i agree with that also i agree the t50 farm was helpful for getting those rare cards but for money grinding half bloods and ai3 were better but as you say it is very tedious for new players. But as everyone saying while zanz keepin it as a pet project, it will not develop at a high rate the best we can do is find a way to persuade people into joining forum and entering pvp tourneys whether official or unofficial for just to have fun.
love makin my decks unusual if able. Chaos and luck are widely regarded as different i beg to differ just refer to :entropy but for those in the know also refer to :time and :death.

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