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Offline Amilir

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118770#msg118770
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2010, 03:15:02 am »
What's the problem with shields?  A shield seems like the obvious first place for defense to me.  I'm also curious about these 'terrible' cards.  Are you talking about the weak unupped creatures? The single shot CC? 

Look here:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html
Aggro is not massively dominating pvp. 

Cards that close one option for another are nice, I hope we'll see more soon.

guolin

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118776#msg118776
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2010, 03:29:37 am »
I think Elements is balanced extremely well at the moment. Unlike MTG, who grinds card after card out to make money, Zanz takes it slowly, taking time to balance and work on stuff. Creature Control, in my opinion, may even be too overpowered, if not for anti-CC like Quintessence, Explosion/Steal (for stuff like Eagle Eye, shields, Sundial, ec.), and of course not using creatures.

Arondight

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118779#msg118779
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2010, 03:32:23 am »
The fire stall deck is definitely one of the most powerful things in PvP right now. So powerful, I made a solid counter deck for it; A deck that also beats quite a few other decks except the deck(s) that Fire Stall manages to beat with ease..  :-X

Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118839#msg118839
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2010, 04:57:25 am »
Look here:
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/board,165.0.html
This is actually very interesting. I guess I just haven't played enough PvP to actually judge the top tier decks.

Precognition - allows for decks to be "24 cards" in essence.
True, but it doesn't actually provide any card advantage.

I think Elements is balanced extremely well at the moment.
I suppose I agree with this now, having actually seen more of the PvP environment

Thanks to everyone who helped.

Kael Hate

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118845#msg118845
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2010, 05:06:20 am »
My ultimate question is this: when does the metagame of Elements shift, just as Magic did? When do we see “Destroy all creatures”, or even “Destroy target creature”? When do we see “Draw two cards”? Will control ever be viable, or will creatures dominate forever?

P.S. I understand that Elements is not Magic, and does not intend to copy Magic, I simply used it as an example because of familiarity. What I have described is a transformation that not only Magic has gone through.
There are some Hideous differences between Magic and Elements which changes how the metagame is looked at.

1. 100 life 30 cards vs 20 life vs 60 cards. One of these environments is much more extreme meaning that a slight adjustment in a crads mechanical value can change the whole environment if measured correctly (Magic). The other is a brutes lounge area where you need to draw and put your muscle on the table and you're unlikely to win without it.

2. Draw Game vs Non-Draw Game. Magic cards and draw are designed to aid the Toolbox player they get what you need to fulfil the task you need to do. In any competition environment for magic less than 1% of drawn cards are redundant. In Elements your draw is limited to top deck and luck. To get an advantage you need to simply draw / mutate as much as possible and hope an answer comes into hand.


Part 1 will never change. Its what makes elements what it is.
Part 2 is the future and very hard to balance when we're still fighting with big sticks.



kobisjeruk

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118888#msg118888
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2010, 07:45:34 am »
@RfG*: Upgraded Pandemonium is probably the closest resemblance to Wrath of God you can ever hope for in Elements. the difference between M:tG and elements have already been said by Kael Hate and you have already said it is just an analogy but the difference is um, what makes it so different
imagine WoG ("Destroy all creatures") in this environment, it will be too powerful of an effect to have (Firespout is okay though)


* funky name you got there. maybe it is somewhat common in your area but not where i live (SEA)

Malduk

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118902#msg118902
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2010, 08:23:30 am »
The reason firestall works that well is because Jade Shield is not a great option for control decks that can get rid of SoG spam (same goes for Mirror Shield which is not a common choice; I use it from time to time in my PvP rainbow, but I havent seen it on anyone else... ever).
SoGs come out fast and require time to get rid of (if you have the means to get rid of them anyway), and by the time you build your counter, Lances have enough quanta to nuke you down.

In all honesty, SoG spam is broken.

Arondight

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118918#msg118918
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2010, 08:50:35 am »
Shards of Gratitude are sort of broken. It really rounds out Fire Decks among many or any deck in particular.

Hodari

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118925#msg118925
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2010, 08:59:02 am »
There are some Hideous differences between Magic and Elements which changes how the metagame is looked at.

1. 100 life 30 cards vs 20 life vs 60 cards. One of these environments is much more extreme meaning that a slight adjustment in a crads mechanical value can change the whole environment if measured correctly (Magic). The other is a brutes lounge area where you need to draw and put your muscle on the table and you're unlikely to win without it.

2. Draw Game vs Non-Draw Game. Magic cards and draw are designed to aid the Toolbox player they get what you need to fulfil the task you need to do. In any competition environment for magic less than 1% of drawn cards are redundant. In Elements your draw is limited to top deck and luck. To get an advantage you need to simply draw / mutate as much as possible and hope an answer comes into hand.
While those may be significant differences, I think you actually missed the most important difference between Magic and Elements, namely the fact that Magic allows you to REACT to every move your opponent makes whereas Elements is strictly turn-based(largely made necessary by the fact that elements was designed for online play where having to stop after each spell to see if anyone wished to respond would be almost impossible). 

Whereas in Elements, a player simply draws a card, casts whatever spells they can, and then attacks, a turn in Magic will often be more like this:
Player A attempts to cast spell
player B counterspells
A counterspells the counterspell
B casts deflection changing the target of the original spell

Player A declares attack with 3 creatures
B unsummons 1, lightning bolts a second, killing it, and blocks the third with one of his own creatures
A attempts to cast a spell destroying the blocking creature, B responds by unsummoning it instead
etc.

The ability to react to every attempted move in this way gives non-creature spells much greater power in Magic than in Elements where a creature is normally guaranteed to get at least one attack in before the opponent even has a CHANCE to react to it being cast.

Kael Hate

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118932#msg118932
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2010, 09:03:17 am »
There are some Hideous differences between Magic and Elements which changes how the metagame is looked at.

1. 100 life 30 cards vs 20 life vs 60 cards. One of these environments is much more extreme meaning that a slight adjustment in a crads mechanical value can change the whole environment if measured correctly (Magic). The other is a brutes lounge area where you need to draw and put your muscle on the table and you're unlikely to win without it.

2. Draw Game vs Non-Draw Game. Magic cards and draw are designed to aid the Toolbox player they get what you need to fulfil the task you need to do. In any competition environment for magic less than 1% of drawn cards are redundant. In Elements your draw is limited to top deck and luck. To get an advantage you need to simply draw / mutate as much as possible and hope an answer comes into hand.
While those may be significant differences, I think you actually missed the most important difference between Magic and Elements, namely the fact that Magic allows you to REACT to every move your opponent makes whereas Elements is strictly turn-based(largely made necessary by the fact that elements was designed for online play where having to stop after each spell to see if anyone wished to respond would be almost impossible). 

Whereas in Elements, a player simply draws a card, casts whatever spells they can, and then attacks, a turn in Magic will often be more like this:
Player A attempts to cast spell
player B counterspells
A counterspells the counterspell
B casts deflection changing the target of the original spell

Player A declares attack with 3 creatures
B unsummons 1, lightning bolts a second, killing it, and blocks the third with one of his own creatures
A attempts to cast a spell destroying the blocking creature, B responds by unsummoning it instead
etc.

The ability to react to every attempted move in this way gives non-creature spells much greater power in Magic than in Elements where a creature is normally guaranteed to get at least one attack in before the opponent even has a CHANCE to react to it being cast.
Very good point.

The reactionary tools in Magic are far more effective than the reactionary tools in Elements. A very defining factor in Metagame analysis.

Offline coinich

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118948#msg118948
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2010, 10:20:47 am »
So out of curiosity, are you guys saying that reactionary spells could be good for Elements, if we wished to see some sort of metagame shift?

Kael Hate

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Re: Elements "metagame" transforming in the future? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=9918.msg118957#msg118957
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2010, 10:46:45 am »
So out of curiosity, are you guys saying that reactionary spells could be good for Elements, if we wished to see some sort of metagame shift?
I'd rather not have reaction cards like magic.

But i would like multifunction cards, pre-emptive reactionary effects (rather than instants like magic) and some draw tools.

 

anything
blarg: