*Author

Offline Korugar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 14
  • Korugar is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.Korugar is taking their first peeks out of the Antlion's burrow.
  • A sporadic participant who loves Gravity.
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189129#msg189129
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2010, 03:49:20 am »
lol, very funny. You know what I meant...

Offline ddevans96

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8307
  • Country: us
  • Reputation Power: 113
  • ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.ddevans96 is a mythical and divine giver of immortality, one of the Turquoise Nymphs.
  • now palafrost online
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 9th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 8th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSilver Donor9th Trials - Master of WaterSlice of Elements 6th Birthday Cake8th Trials - Master of WaterSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWinner of the Harry Potter PvP House CupSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189130#msg189130
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2010, 03:50:22 am »
Hmm...where's the "Like" button...?
http://www.facebook.com/
I loled at this (also gives me an excuse to post here so I can find it easier :) )
discord / twitter: palafrost - 2x master of water - false god enthusiast
twitch: palafrost - speedrunner, ex-celeste, currently hades
avatar: makoto [persona 5] by asukabaka

Offline Sir ValimontTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
  • Reputation Power: 33
  • Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Awards: War #2 Winner - Team Entropy
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189133#msg189133
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2010, 03:57:26 am »
Hmm...where's the "Like" button...?
Haha ... I hope you mean you "like" the original post and not some "anti" comments. :)

Offline EvaRia

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3143
  • Country: ca
  • Reputation Power: 45
  • EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.EvaRia is towering like an Amethyst Dragon over their peers.
  • I~am~Eva, ~Chillwind~ I~am~Ria, ~Searwind~
  • Awards: War #5 Winner - Team Aether
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189153#msg189153
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2010, 04:18:37 am »
IMO, the event card IS a bit unbalanced. Since war only has a limited number of rounds, it isn't balanced that only a few of the event cards can even show up in the war, and having 12 cards based on giving a single element an advantage leaves less room for other event cards that can potentially make for more use of strategy, and can still be balanced at the same time.

I understand what was trying to be done with the element based event cards, but the thing is, they are largely unnecessary.
You can have the tourney run fine, if not better, without them and that can leave more room for other more interesting events and also decrease the amount of upset without the community.

All in all, it's not a HUGE deal. But that goes either way. Who's to decide what's a good reaction and what's a bad reaction from the community? Obviously, looking at it logically, the community itself is to decide that. There's no reason to put other people down and say how disappointed you are in them just because they are striving for the biggest balance in the game.
An opinion is an opinion, sure, but it's always best to try to present yourself in a semi-neutral position and look at both sides of the argument. For me, I think you're making the reaction of the community into a bigger deal than it actually is.

From what I gather, all that people are saying is that:
1. The card is unbalanced.
2. The card gives certain teams an unnecessary advantage.
3. War could be better without such cards.
3. We choose not to take advantage of the card because it is unbalanced.

That's all I really have to say.

Offline Dm

  • Legendary Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3928
  • Reputation Power: 56
  • Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.Dm is truly a Titan, worthy of respect and acknowledgement.
  • Awards: Slice of Elements 10th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 7th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 6th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 5th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 4th Birthday CakeSlice of Elements 3rd Birthday CakeWeekly Tournament WinnerSlice of Elements 2nd Birthday Cake
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189156#msg189156
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2010, 04:20:39 am »
Hmm...where's the "Like" button...?
http://www.facebook.com/

The laugh of the day



I think this is a good point to raise because a lot of people are unclear about it.

As in your example, choosing not to use the three upgraded cards every round would be completely legal; that's your choice and you are accepting both options, then picking one. Nothing wrong with that.

When does "not choosing something" become illegal? Here's the answer:

Let's start with a hypothetical. Let's pretend that the event card had said that all Light cards for the round had to be upgraded. (Obviously it would never say that for several reasons but let's just say it did).

In this case, the community would have been equally outraged and the same actions taken. However, those actions would now actually be against the rules (because not using upped cards goes against what the event card says and of course against the rules..

It is illegal, therefore is illegal.


How is this hypothetical situation different from what really happened? Substantively, it is identical, except for the technicality of the rule. So when players interpret this situation as a giving up of an option to use upped cards, that's not really an accurate view; they wouldn't have been building their decks individually and taking the option of using unupped cards for specific reasons (e.g. I don't have the upped card / I prefer the unupped version's casting cost). Actually what they would have been doing was to remove the option of using upped cards altogether. The end result is the same thing as choosing not to, but the modus operandi was actually to ignore the event card. In general, ignoring event cards is of course against the rules.

So, from what I understood, you just said that is Illegal to just choose to not use the bonus given to you - Even though the bonus does not necessarily asks you to do it, it is just a choice. It PERMITS the use of upped cards - but doesn't makes them necessary to be used, etc, is illegal to do the legal.



In other words, it's basically a coincidence that this particular event card gave an optional bonus rather than a required one. So, ignoring the event card (which is against the rules) happened to coincide with a legal version of play which would be to use the event card but choose an option with the same result (no upped cards).

That fact doesn't change the illegality of ignoring the event card.
And that fact does not changes that it is legal to ust use the legal part of the play to use non upped cards evenif the bonus PERMITS you so. Therefore, you talked and talked but we came back to spot 0.

Offline Sir ValimontTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
  • Reputation Power: 33
  • Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Awards: War #2 Winner - Team Entropy
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189161#msg189161
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2010, 04:26:42 am »
Maybe it would be easier to understand like this:

It's completely irrelevant whether or not boycotting is "against the rules." What's relevant is whether it's appropriate. And it is completely inappropriate ... so that's the problem.

Kurohami

  • Guest
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189185#msg189185
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2010, 05:13:42 am »
I don't see how what Mr Blonde said can be perceived as immature, I think people are over exaggerating. When I read the OP I was kind of agreeing with Sir. Val, but after I saw what the "boycott" actually was, I want to say that it is in no way unreasonable, and it didn't harm the event in any kind of way and I would even say it's quite noble. Mr. Blonde did not demand any other teams to follow with his decision, he only restricted his own team, which is entirely within his rights and doesn't affect other war teams at all (except maybe on a morale level). And I wouldn't really call being able to upgrade all light cards a "slight" advantage. Upgrading 1 card doesn't make a difference, but upgrading half the deck or even an entire deck makes a whole world of difference. Especially in PvP, where lots of times the winner only wins by a hair. I didn't expect there would be this kind of strongly biased event card either, and I have to say I don't like it. Of course, the event cards would unavoidably benefit different teams differently, but having ALL the light card upgraded is too much. I think 3 upped at most would be the limit. With this kind of extremely unfair advantage, it is not at all unreasonable to disagree with it and protest in a way that doesn't affect anyone else.

Offline Sir ValimontTopic starter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 948
  • Reputation Power: 33
  • Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.Sir Valimont is a Ghost, obsessed with their Elemental pursuits.
  • Awards: War #2 Winner - Team Entropy
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189193#msg189193
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2010, 05:32:05 am »
Well there are two completely separate issues. One is whether the event cards were overpowered / unbalanced, and the other is whether the boycott was appropriate.

As I've said many times now, yes MrBlonde and any other player would have the right not to take advantage of an optional bonus. No, neither he nor any other player should have incited a player rebellion.

As for the overpoweredness, I think that's a conversation worth having. Personally I think people are also overreacting on that score but it's something that should be discussed. girlsgeneration made some good points earlier about how the "Age" cards might have serious effects in the endgame of War that would otherwise be less obvious in earlier stages. In any event, the discussion (which should have happened in the first place instead of boycotting) is better late than never initiated.

Scaredgirl

  • Guest
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189196#msg189196
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2010, 05:41:24 am »
I don't see how what Mr Blonde said can be perceived as immature, I think people are over exaggerating. When I read the OP I was kind of agreeing with Sir. Val, but after I saw what the "boycott" actually was, I want to say that it is in no way unreasonable, and it didn't harm the event in any kind of way and I would even say it's quite noble. Mr. Blonde did not demand any other teams to follow with his decision, he only restricted his own team, which is entirely within his rights and doesn't affect other war teams at all (except maybe on a morale level). And I wouldn't really call being able to upgrade all light cards a "slight" advantage. Upgrading 1 card doesn't make a difference, but upgrading half the deck or even an entire deck makes a whole world of difference. Especially in PvP, where lots of times the winner only wins by a hair. I didn't expect there would be this kind of strongly biased event card either, and I have to say I don't like it. Of course, the event cards would unavoidably benefit different teams differently, but having ALL the light card upgraded is too much. I think 3 upped at most would be the limit. With this kind of extremely unfair advantage, it is not at all unreasonable to disagree with it and protest in a way that doesn't affect anyone else.
The "boycott" would have killed the whole event because when some teams would have participated in it, and others wouldn't, that's when the real drama would have started.

You can try to paint it as some kind of noble cause, but the fact is that these kinds of boycotts are highly destructive because they are basically breaking the event rules and encouraging others to do so as well. As an organizer, I find it highly disrespectful that the community thinks they can make up their own rules like this.

I think that my event planning work here hasn't been appreciated and has been taken as granted. People somehow assume that they can step in at any point and boycott a big event like this, while I will just roll over and continue to slave away like business as usual. Well, they are wrong.

Uppercut

  • Guest
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189206#msg189206
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2010, 05:56:46 am »
As someone not participating in the war I agree with both sides. Boycotting is both reasonable and destructive; but not reasonably destructive.

Kurohami

  • Guest
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189210#msg189210
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2010, 06:07:58 am »
SG, I know there would possibly be unpleasant consequences for arguing with the admin, but I just wants to point out that no one tried to make up any rules, they only protested against an existing rule. I am sorry that your hard work are not getting their deserved appreciation, but this particular event card is quite unexpected and arguably biased. One doesn't always have to be right, we can always improve in the next war. Also, I was under the impression the event card is only a right but it does is not obligated to be exercised. If one doesn't feel like upgrading or is temporarily short on electrum he/she can always choose not to use the effect of that event card. It is under that impression that I said it is entirely within Mr Blonde's right to ignore the event card.

Gl1tch, discussion is the whole point of having a forum, if we just get over everything that happens then what's the point of having a forum? Yes, we need to move on, but discussing what has happened can help make better choices in the future. Everyone has the right to express their opinions, not just 12 years olds.

Scaredgirl

  • Guest
Re: Editorial: My Views on the Event Card Drama https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=14876.msg189219#msg189219
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2010, 06:52:54 am »
SG, I know there would possibly be unpleasant consequences for arguing with the admin, but I just wants to point out that no one tried to make up any rules, they only protested against an existing rule. I am sorry that your hard work are not getting their deserved appreciation, but this particular event card is quite unexpected and arguably biased. One doesn't always have to be right, we can always improve in the next war. Also, I was under the impression the event card is only a right but it does is not obligated to be exercised. If one doesn't feel like upgrading or is temporarily short on electrum he/she can always choose not to use the effect of that event card. It is under that impression that I said it is entirely within Mr Blonde's right to ignore the event card.
This wasn't a case of being short on electrum. This was a case of not following the event rules because you disagree with the rules. It's like going to a PvP tournament and playing best-of-seven because you think it's a better rule, and you somehow think that you, as a participant, are allowed to make up your own rules.

Like already mentioned on this topic, there are two different sides to this:

1. Is the card OP and would it have killed the whole event?
That is a good question and something that should definitely be considered. I personally think that the cards would have been very interesting because it would have changed deckbuilding a lot during that round. Unfortunately many people somehow thought that this would have been an automatic win which is pretty ridiculous. Anyone who has any PvP experience, knows that upped cards do not mean an automatic win. And here we had a case of all teams being able to use them. With some creative deckbuilding, the advantage would have been much smaller than what people thought.

2. Do you, as a player, have a right to pick and choose the event rules you like?
I mean who is running these events, the players or the organizers? Do all event rules have to be posted beforehand and put on a community-wide vote just to avoid any surprises? I personally would never in a million years, enter a free forum event of a free online game, and assume that I am somehow entitled to pick and choose which rules to obey and which not. Sadly many people do think like this. I even talked to someone in chat yesterday who basically said that it's his right to change the rules because he's the participant of War, like I should be thankful somehow that he chose to bless me with his presence by entering this event.


Those two are completely different issues and shouldn't be mixed together.

 

blarg: