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Offline eaglgenes101Topic starter

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Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118062#msg1118062
« on: December 30, 2013, 03:03:47 am »
So I had a thought about elements turing completeness, and I posted it in the simple questions thread.

The idea behind turing completeness is that it can compute anything a turing machine can. The most powerful computation model we have is the turing machine, so basically it can compute anything that can be computed (which is not every problem). MTG is turing complete.

So could ETG be made turing complete with CIA card ideas?

First, the tape: There are very few things in EtG that are theoretically infinite. The only things that don't have clear bounds are permanent stacks, poison/purify counters, SoSac counters, and decks. I suggest using the decks for the tape. Moving left through the tape would be represented by drawing a card from your deck, putting it in a head area, and putting the current head card in the opponents deck. Vice versa for moving the head the other way.

Second, making sure the thing doesn't come to a halt: This is not the tricky part. The tricky part comes later. Anyway, my current thoughts are to use a creature that forces other creatures to use their skills, paired with a load of trusts, to make a system where all the creatures are forced to use their abilities. The self-sustaining comes from the skill-forcing creatures using their skills on each other ad infinitum.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 04:56:52 am by eaglgenes101 »
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Offline antiaverage

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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118065#msg1118065
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2013, 03:13:30 am »
For reference, here is the article on MtG being Turing Complete:
http://boingboing.net/2012/09/12/magic-the-gathering.html

Simply put, we need to get EtG to permit unbounded recursion or loops.

It may help you to read about a Turing Machine to start picturing what we need:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine
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Offline CuCN

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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118066#msg1118066
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2013, 03:17:10 am »
Other things that are theoretically infinite: poison counters, purify counters, SoSac counters

Offline eaglgenes101Topic starter

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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118072#msg1118072
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2013, 04:00:01 am »
Ok, now let's scour CIA for card ideas that cause automatic actions on triggers.
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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118084#msg1118084
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2013, 05:01:56 am »
Ok, now let's scour CIA for card ideas that cause automatic actions on triggers.
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Offline eaglgenes101Topic starter

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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118090#msg1118090
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2013, 05:37:17 am »
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 05:45:04 am by eaglgenes101 »
My 3 game-modification principles:
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Offline CuCN

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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118093#msg1118093
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2013, 05:57:24 am »
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/crucible-archive/order-command/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-3-armory/imp-spirit-fiend-spirit/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/card-ideas-and-art/manipulator-manipulator/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/forge-archive/thought-leech-mind-leech/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/card-ideas-and-art/volvap-volvap/
These might not be suitable, because they still need to be targeted.

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/series/instinctive-actions-%28series%29-%28to-be-moved%29/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/series/series-autocast/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-3-armory/wolf-wolf/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/card-ideas-and-art/refresh-rejuvinate/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-3-armory/rectify-amend/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-3-armory/upgrade-downgrade/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-3-armory/fenghuang-fenghuang/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-3-armory/tomb-grave/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-2-forge/onslaught-assault/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/card-ideas-and-art/oblivion-oblivion/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/card-ideas-and-art/era-eon/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/crucible-archive/interrogate-interrogate/
These could also be useful.

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/crucible-archive/hidden-den-foxhole/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/pre-smithy-ideas/witchhag/
These seem similar to the "phase in/phase out" mechanic that the MtG turing machine used to have two states.

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-1-crucible/trust-trust/
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/level-3-armory/donate-give/
Some cards that you mentioned, that I'm linking for reference
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 07:34:06 am by CuCN »

Offline eaglgenes101Topic starter

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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118101#msg1118101
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 06:34:55 am »
Idea 1: Use a card that redirects CC to 2 creatures at once, so a wolf vengeance cycle makes the thing go. Use this wolf vengeance cycle to activate cards that cause effects when CC'd. Use an auto-healing or revival card to make sure nothing dies. Use flying eternity to send creatures back to their respective decks. Use a spell-absorbing creature given give to send cards to the other side.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 06:57:36 am by eaglgenes101 »
My 3 game-modification principles:
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2. Simple fixes for simple problems.
3. Remember to fill in the holes.

Offline eaglgenes101Topic starter

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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118361#msg1118361
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2013, 01:23:57 am »
Thought: piles of trusts + creature that forces other creatures to use their abilities = make a bunch of creatures use their skills
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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1118477#msg1118477
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2013, 05:18:22 pm »
A simpler question might be what mechanics are sufficient to get it done?

If I understood it right, we need to set a board state (possibly populated with cards that don't exist) and give each player a deck that would work like the program running in the machine (the tape). Everything would work automatically to get the calculation done? Will the output of the calculation be in the decks too?
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Offline eaglgenes101Topic starter

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Re: Making elements turing complete https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=53081.msg1119629#msg1119629
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2014, 08:57:34 pm »
Back.
What I'm thinking of is if you took the game and changed the state with something like cheat engine into an ideal configuration, you could sit back and watch the simulation.
My 3 game-modification principles:
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2. Simple fixes for simple problems.
3. Remember to fill in the holes.

 

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