Poll

Do you like the idea of Shards?

Yes
34 (47.9%)
No
37 (52.1%)

Total Members Voted: 71

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Offline Xamuel

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444620#msg444620
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 12:51:32 am »
Ask me again in about 3 years when I actually have some  >:(

Seriously, shards look pretty fun...  but they take forever to get.  I would like them more if they were limited to maybe 3 per deck (and upped accordingly) so you wouldn't need to spend a bajillion years exiled in the silver arena saltmines  :-X  :-\

Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444630#msg444630
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 01:57:52 am »
I voted no because I do not like Shards.  I do not think Elements even needs an Other category to begin with, let alone have Other cards that are more powerful than Elemental equivalents.  I'd be much happier with Shards if they were instead changed to powerful cards of their respective Elements.

For me it comes down to the old debate between Rainbows and Monos.  When you start off in Elements you're picking one of the twelve, but endgame, more and more, is geared towards Rainbow decks.  Like Shantu said, Shards are too Rainbow friendly. 

Shards have been a problem (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,1923.0.html) in organized PvP since we've had organized PvP to begin with.  It puzzles me that zanz is making new cards that will be going straight to the PvP ban list.

Vault building rules:
- no Shards
Special Rules
Shards and upgraded cards are not allowed.
Deckbuilding
BEGINNERS LEAGUE
2. You cannot use Shards
CHAMPIONSHIP LEAGUE
2. You cannot use the following cards: Shard of Sacrifice, Shard of Patience, Shard of Serendipity, Shard of Void
Deckbuilding
The use of cards from the Other category as well as upgraded cards is not allowed.

Offline n00b

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444632#msg444632
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 02:15:27 am »
I would have to say no. In the beginning, shards were nice cards to have... maybe a bit OP (such as SoG), but you pay for it by having them unusable until upgraded. This is not the case with these. Though cards like SoSa and SoSe gain significant bonuses when upgrading them, having them playable unupgraded simply just gives Other some powerful, cheap-to-play cards. As stated before, they are taking some of the identity of the elements, as stated with Mono Fire being able to have healing. Some of these might make good Elemental cards, but, at least in my opinion, they should not be other.
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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444633#msg444633
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 02:18:01 am »
Quote
I do not think Elements even needs an Other category to begin with, let alone have Other cards that are more powerful than Elemental equivalents.  I'd be much happier with Shards if they were instead changed to powerful cards of their respective Elements.
I partially disagree here because arguing Elements has no concept of "Other" is like saying there is no neutral opinion in a war involving different factions. Even our own War has Team Underworld, which is technically Team Rainbow depending on interpretation. 

I also disagree that Shards must go into an Element just because they strongly relate to an Element. If shards were weaker than actual element cards or had a scaled power level of some sort based on how 'loyal' to an element you were, I'd think they'd make decent Other cards that could justify themselves as magical artifacts or something similar. (In a sense, Shards are like the "Mutable" concept Oldtrees mentioned earlier or the "Shapestone" item in ddevans' Elemental Adventure - they're ordinary artifacts that provide effects based on their element, but their abilities change/improve in the presence of other factors.)

I do agree however that it makes no sense for Shards to be stronger than actual in-element cards, though - in RPG terms, a Fire "Warrior" Village should have access to healing potions, but not ones that are somehow superior to Life "Healer" Village potions.

Quote
For me it comes down to the old debate between Rainbows and Monos.  When you start off in Elements you're picking one of the twelve, but endgame, more and more, is geared towards Rainbow decks.  Like Shantu said, Shards are too Rainbow friendly. 
Would shards still be overly rainbow friendly if they were greatly weakened, rebalanced, or overhauled? (I'd think that there would be a point where nerfed shards begin to take up dead weight in rainbow decks if the deck has too many of them.)

Quote
It puzzles me that zanz is making new cards that will going straight to the PvP ban list.
In the defense of the 'idea' of Shards, I would consider the ridiculously imbalanced recent shards a result of potential bad judgement, as I said earlier. As EvaRia also mentioned, it seems like Zanz has a great idea, looks at the facts he's working on shards, and slaps the two together in a very awkward mess. I'm beginning to notice a zigzag of quality cards in this game ever since the new shards were being added - some were decent (SoSe, SoV) but more were on different sides of the UP/OP fence and as I stated before imply bad judgement and design. (UP: SoP, SoC OP: SoSa,SoF).

Offline plastiqeTopic starter

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444639#msg444639
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2012, 02:53:08 am »
I partially disagree here because arguing Elements has no concept of "Other" is like saying there is no neutral opinion in a war involving different factions. Even our own War has Team Underworld, which is technically Team Rainbow depending on interpretation.
And how popular is the idea of Team Underworld in War?  I'd be voting "No" if that was a poll too.  I'll refrain from posting the screenshot, but when you start an Elements account, you pick one of the 12 Elements.  Other is not an option, it's an afterthought.  Do we really need cards like Dagger, Short Sword and Tower Shield that cost random quanta?

Would shards still be overly rainbow friendly if they were greatly weakened, rebalanced, or overhauled?
Well, if you nerfed Shards into the ground they'd be fine.  o.O 

I am in favour of a complete overhaul by making Shards into cards of their Element.

Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444640#msg444640
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 03:00:43 am »
Quote
And how popular is the idea of Team Underworld in War?  I'd be voting "No" if that was a poll too.  I'll refrain from posting the screenshot, but when you start an Elements account, you pick one of the 12 Elements.  Other is not an option, it's an afterthought.  Do we really need cards like Dagger, Short Sword and Tower Shield that cost random quanta?
We don't need it, (and the same could be said for some underpowered cards like Antlion), but it's fills a niche and adds variety to game. The Other weapons usually finds their way into some decks that need a cheap source of damage that their weapon might be less preferrable for or for players that need a weapon but don't have enough rares. I think appropriately nerfed Shards could fill a similar role of being splashed in a deck without being imbalanced.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444644#msg444644
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 03:08:53 am »
I partially disagree here because arguing Elements has no concept of "Other" is like saying there is no neutral opinion in a war involving different factions. Even our own War has Team Underworld, which is technically Team Rainbow depending on interpretation.
And how popular is the idea of Team Underworld in War?  I'd be voting "No" if that was a poll too.  I'll refrain from posting the screenshot, but when you start an Elements account, you pick one of the 12 Elements.  Other is not an option, it's an afterthought.  Do we really need cards like Dagger, Short Sword and Tower Shield that cost random quanta?
Is there a valuable addition that would work better as an other card rather than as 12 different cards? Some other cards like Longsword are efficient shortcuts that work better than a 12 card series of Cheap Vanilla Elemental weapons.
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Offline jmdt

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444647#msg444647
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 03:20:49 am »
I like each element to develop more independant and unique of each other.  As such, I do not like the direction shards are taking the game.  Should every element have healing...no.  Should every element have PC, CC...no.  Every element should work mechanically different, but still be equally strong and competative.  While I don't like every element having PC, I do think every element should have their own unique way around things like shields or critters.

I really wish this work would be put into making both the upped and unupped versions of each element balanced and competative and adding cards to strengthen weaknesses in elements while staying with their flavor.

Offline rowcla

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444649#msg444649
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 03:26:48 am »
Im fine with most, though some just annoy me, i reckon that they should be a bit easier to get and they should end up being more like nymphs, where there really powerful and awesome, but they arent just insanely powerful
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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444654#msg444654
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 03:37:15 am »
Shards as they are destroy a lot of the potential gameplay.
A good play design of strategy games like this say treat other or neutral abilities as accents or as an entirely distinct system.
Let's look at MtG a long time ago, to introduce a lot of the colorless cards they had the artifacts war...  Their wasn't just a few, there was enough to have many entirely colorless decks.  But really the abilities were significantly weak enough that they demanded the bulk of abilities came from the main mana sources.  They simply offered a weaker version of what another color of magic provided.
Shard's are cool, but at their power level you need the ability to significantly neutralize them.   The first couple shards, Shard of Gratitude, offered healing to all, Shard of Readiness didn't make time creatures supper powerful but assisted in duel elemental use card plays.   They weren't significantly overpowered, SoG could be in some cases, but largely they provided some abilities to others...  now if we are doing this shard war, their needs to be cards that significantly counter them too, until then this game is significantly out of balance. 

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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg444760#msg444760
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 01:33:36 pm »
Hey, so somebody DID start a topic like this! I was about to do the same. :P

The more I think about Shards, the more I believe they would be MUCH better off as elemental cards. Some would need some serious nerfing in ANY case, but take a look at these:





















Sure, they're far from perfect. But suddently Sacrifice can be compared to Dimensional Shield, Void to Poison, Focus to Deflagration... And, with some proper thought they could become way more flavorful. For instance, just renaming them to something like :light Spark of Divinity /  :life Regeneration /  :water Poseidon's Wrath /  :gravity Implosion /  :death Undead Vigor might be nicer...
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Re: Do you like the idea of Shards? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=35285.msg445134#msg445134
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 09:41:41 am »
I have to say I kind of like the very idea of Shards. They put some kind of new enterntainment into playing. However, I definitely do not like the way players are able to gain new shards. I mean, farming Arena is fun, but if you want to gain the shards you want it takes like....forever....and these special spins combined with my luck...or rather lack of it. And the idea I've just got: maybe you should have a chance to win particular shards on particular kind of Arena? For example: SoV at Bronze, SoG at Silver, SoSe at Gold, SoSac/SoR at Platinuum... Yes, maybe it would decrease the chance of winning few kinds of shards [like SoG], but it would make it easier to win rare shards like for example SoSac.

 

blarg: