Discussion/Study of Elements of Nature

[Flayne]

I generally try to make the elements as detached from the physical world as possible. For example, I don't think of Fire as the chemical reaction that releases heat, but rather the type of elemental energy that allow such chemical reactions to take place. In the case of something more tangible, like Earth, I think of it as the type of elemental energy that allow atoms to stick together and form rocks. In their purest forms, namely quanta, the elements are all pure energy with no physical forms.

In the case of Light and Darkness... Well, physically Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, so it would fall under Aether; Darkness is the absence of Light, so it doesn't really exist. I have to metaphorically tie them to the human concepts of altruism and selfishness, to give them their own unique characteristics. It's the same with Life and Death: physically they don't exist, but metaphorically they relate to the concepts of growth and decay. This is why I call these four elements Spiritual, because they wouldn't have any meaning if sentient creatures do not exist.

EON=element/s of nature

But one problem with calling Light and Darkness EON using your metaphorical reference,
how can we relate moral/immoral values to animals? Animals and individual cells don´t necessarily have that kind of mentality, if anything, they only have a sense of what is bad or good for them in terms of survival instinct, such as the antelope knowing that the lion is dangerous and the lion knowing it needs food for survival.
How can we classify Light and Darkness as EON according to your metaphorical interpretation of it, when this kind of knowledge only applies to humans? is that really enough to classify them as EON?

 

[Monox D. I-Fly]

how can we relate moral/immoral values to animals? Animals and individual cells don´t necessarily have that kind of mentality, if anything, they only have a sense of what is bad or good for them in terms of survival instinct, such as the antelope knowing that the lion is dangerous and the lion knowing it needs food for survival.
How can we classify Light and Darkness as EON according to your metaphorical interpretation of it, when this kind of knowledge only applies to humans? is that really enough to classify them as EON?

I'll give you an example of those:
Animal with light element: Firefly, because they emit light.
Animal with darkness element: Bat, because they live in darkness.

[Flayne]

how can we relate moral/immoral values to animals? Animals and individual cells don´t necessarily have that kind of mentality, if anything, they only have a sense of what is bad or good for them in terms of survival instinct, such as the antelope knowing that the lion is dangerous and the lion knowing it needs food for survival.
How can we classify Light and Darkness as EON according to your metaphorical interpretation of it, when this kind of knowledge only applies to humans? is that really enough to classify them as EON?

I'll give you an example of those:
Animal with light element: Firefly, because they emit light.
Animal with darkness element: Bat, because they live in darkness.

you don´t seem to understand what i´m talking about, you should thoroughly read BloodShadow´s post first and then read mine.
i´m talking about how we can classify light and darkness as EON according to BloodShadow´s metaphorical interpretation, not according to how animals can be related to the two EON.

and a bat isn´t exactly an animal "with" darkness, it just lives in darkness out of pure adaptation.

[Bloodshadow]

But one problem with calling Light and Darkness EON using your metaphorical reference,
how can we relate moral/immoral values to animals? Animals and individual cells don´t necessarily have that kind of mentality, if anything, they only have a sense of what is bad or good for them in terms of survival instinct, such as the antelope knowing that the lion is dangerous and the lion knowing it needs food for survival.
How can we classify Light and Darkness as EON according to your metaphorical interpretation of it, when this kind of knowledge only applies to humans? is that really enough to classify them as EON?

Light: Altruism, desire to unconditionally help others with no benefits to yourself.
Darkness: Selfishness, desire to help yourself at the expense of others.

Animals are perfectly capable of such acts. Selfishness is survival instinct, while altruism can be shown when animals protect their offsprings. I never said these elements are "moral"; in fact, I classified them as Spiritual.

Light and Darkness are metaphorical, but their physical manifestations resemble normal light and absence of light.

Honestly, first time I knew Elements the Game, I was disappointed. I don't know why time, gravity, aether, entropy, life, and death are categorized as nature elements.

Even since I was a child, I have decided what the standard elements are, or at least in my ideal. Those are:
Fire
Water
Air
Thunder
Rock ("Colorless" human-type creatures belong to this)
Wood ("Colorless" animal-type creatures belong to this)
Metal
Light
Darkness

There are nine. And I've never seen any story or games which use exactly those 9 elements. The only one approaches that was Digimon Frontier, with an addition of Ice. But I always think that Ice element is included in Water element. And if there's Ice element, why there's no lava element?

Still, I never consider time, gravity, and etc who are abstract to be any element.

Several years ago, in China, I used these exact 9 elements before. I got those by combining the Chinese 5-elements system (metal, wood, water, fire, earth) with the Japanese 5-elements system (fire, water, earth, wind, aether), along with Light and Darkness. However, I have long since ditched that system and looked for simpler ones. Currently I'm settling with the classical Greek elements (fire, water, earth, air), along with light, dark, and aether, and adding my own twists to each of them.

[Flayne]

Light: Altruism, desire to unconditionally help others with no benefits to yourself.
Darkness: Selfishness, desire to help yourself at the expense of others.

Animals are perfectly capable of such acts. Selfishness is survival instinct, while altruism can be shown when animals protect their offsprings. I never said these elements are "moral"; in fact, I classified them as Spiritual.

Light and Darkness are metaphorical, but their physical manifestations resemble normal light and absence of light.

Definition of Altruism (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/altruism): I dont see "no benefits to yourself" in this description of Altruism but perhaps that can be included.
however,
Definition of Selfishness (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/selfishness): Since when was it "at the expense of others"? i suppose to most people this can be a selfish act but it really doesn´t fit into the exact definition of selfishness (im just saying).

But fair enough, I´ll agree to a point where "some" animals are capable of such acts of altruism (ex:dogs) and selfishness (predators) but selfishness seems to be more a human quality than an animal quality because for animals its just survival instinct, its not necessarily an option to them, however humans can be selfish by survival instinct or due to a malicious nature.

anyway, even if all the animals were capable of such acts,
Is that enough to classify Darkness an EON according to your metaphorical interpretation?
Perhaps, but the physical properties of darkness are still questionable, perhaps your right though.

Now that i think of it, there are seperate realms of light and darkness.
Heaven and Hades. Both have powerful effects on humanity, and even in animals.
and since light and darkness according to that have their own realms, they can be considered as EON.




 

[Bloodshadow]

For the last time, Light and Darkness are NOT elements of nature. I classified them as Spiritual for a reason. They're not like Fire, Water, Earth, and Air, with clear associations to the physical world. They're not like Time, Aether, Entropy, and Gravity, with clear associations to the spacetime itself. Light, Darkness, Life, and Death are associated with consciousness, not nature.

Also, it seems like you were just nitpicking when you got out the dictionary. Why am I defending myself? I'm not even trying to convince you to agree with my systems.

[Flayne]

For the last time, Light and Darkness are NOT elements of nature. I classified them as Spiritual for a reason. They're not like Fire, Water, Earth, and Air, with clear associations to the physical world. They're not like Time, Aether, Entropy, and Gravity, with clear associations to the spacetime itself. Light, Darkness, Life, and Death are associated with consciousness, not nature.

Also, it seems like you were just nitpicking when you got out the dictionary. Why am I defending myself? I'm not even trying to convince you to agree with my systems.

But i did begin to agree with you to a certain degree, im not really against you, i was just trying to figure out how to classify Light and Darkness as EON according to your explanation,
but i get it now, your saying they have nothing to do with the physical nature of beings but rather the very mentality or consciousness of that living organism such as humans which is why you classify them as spiritual, to that extent i agree with your system, because how better to classify Light and darkness rather than just "lights on-lights off"? so i actually agree with your system on that note.

the point of this study is to discuss this very stuff and understand each other, so sorry if i didn´t get you the first time, now i understand what you mean 

now, since themetaphorical aspect of light and darkness go against my theoretical method of classification, how can we change the classification rules?
should we divide them into 4 seperate divisions with seperate classification rules, like Old trees mentioned and making one of those divisions "spiritual" which includes  according to your system?

[Bloodshadow]

how can we change the classification rules?

Not to sound mean or anything, but there is no "we" because I use my own separate system of classifications. Since I consider my own classifications better than yours (again, no offense), I'll just keep using mine instead of trying to modify yours. The reason I posted my classifications here is because I wanted to provide you with some inspirations, but in the end it's really up to you to try and perfect your system.

[Flayne]

how can we change the classification rules?

Not to sound mean or anything, but there is no "we" because I use my own separate system of classifications. Since I consider my own classifications better than yours (again, no offense), I'll just keep using mine instead of trying to modify yours. The reason I posted my classifications here is because I wanted to provide you with some inspirations, but in the end it's really up to you to try and perfect your system.

Oh ok then, well as i have said before i agree with your system to an extent and actually have been inspired by yours to make certain changes, what im trying to do in this study is to create the simplest way to classify EON, as well as questioning some of the current ones chosen for the game, but at the same time avoiding to create a highly structured classification system, im trying to break that down into the simplest form possible.

thanks for contributing to this study Bloodshadow, i appreciate it 

[Monox D. I-Fly]

Honestly, first time I knew Elements the Game, I was disappointed. I don't know why time, gravity, aether, entropy, life, and death are categorized as nature elements.

Even since I was a child, I have decided what the standard elements are, or at least in my ideal. Those are:
Fire
Water
Air
Thunder
Rock ("Colorless" human-type creatures belong to this)
Wood ("Colorless" animal-type creatures belong to this)
Metal
Light
Darkness

There are nine. And I've never seen any story or games which use exactly those 9 elements. The only one approaches that was Digimon Frontier, with an addition of Ice. But I always think that Ice element is included in Water element. And if there's Ice element, why there's no lava element?

Still, I never consider time, gravity, and etc who are abstract to be any element.

Several years ago, in China, I used these exact 9 elements before. I got those by combining the Chinese 5-elements system (metal, wood, water, fire, earth) with the Japanese 5-elements system (fire, water, earth, wind, aether), along with Light and Darkness. However, I have long since ditched that system and looked for simpler ones. Currently I'm settling with the classical Greek elements (fire, water, earth, air), along with light, dark, and aether, and adding my own twists to each of them.

Honestly I have an idea to make an elemental trading card game using those exactly 9 elements. And if you've ever thought about that, we can join our ideas together.

[EpicFirestorm]

My opinion of the main 11 elements:

Fire
Water
Earth
Air
Thunder
Ice
Metal
Poison
Darkness
Light
Nature

[Monox D. I-Fly]

My opinion of the main 11 elements:

Fire
Water
Earth
Air
Thunder
Ice
Metal
Poison
Darkness
Light
Nature

Why do you make Water and Ice to be separated element? I think if you do that, you should make Lava element too, as a counter to Ice element.
Poison is good to be a counter of Nature after all, but I didn't use that.