Discuss about Aether

[Tea is good]

for dragon and immortal (upgraded)

Dragon: it takes 10 quanta for a 10 attack creature. From there, you have Quint costs 3 (upgraded). Which is built into your card. So you get 13 quanta for a 10 attack creature. Then we add +1 quanta, because it takes half the card slots of a quinted dragon. Total: 14

Immortal: 3 quanta for a 5 attack creature. Yes, this is a bad ratio. Don't bring up mummy, that has a skill. add 3 quanta for your quint and another for your combining the two cards. Total: 7

[ddevans96]

The only buff Aether Nymph needs is for Anubis to have a different ability that actually fits thematically. I won't get into a discussion about that.

You could say that, or you could say

The only buff Aether Nymph needs is to get a whole new ability, and change Quintessence to this new, original alchemy card, that fits thematically. I won't get into a discussion about how much more awesome, balanced and generally good for the game will be, and I won't insult any of those stupid people who disagree either.

Personally, I think the second opinion is just slightly better.
And by that I mean it is the only viable option, since it is miles better than the alternative.
 

Mocking my words isn't exactly what I would have expected as a reply. To be honest I find it rather out of line, and borderline offensive. Remove it please.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

I am against any talk of replacing quint, get another alchemy card for aether is fine, but quint can't be removed, it's just too essential for many FG bows... I know zanz doesn't balance the game by PvAI, but still... the removal of quint just is not a good idea

[Yardof]

Mindgate play can be pretty brutal if you have the patience for it.  And the dragon and immortal are fine as they cant be targeted, so you get less hit power, but the cards are staying around for a while.

[Essence]

Bah.  Aether Nymph vs. Anubis is like saying we should change Otyugh because Scarab exists.  They're two remarkably different cards with different purposes and different balancing points.  Aether Nymph is a badass attacker (seriously, 8 power!) that's vulnerable for a single turn before it can immortalize itself -- it makes Shrieker go pout in the corner, and it's an AETHER card.   Anubis is much sturdier for that one turn, but makes a much poorer attacker, and of course there's the whole 'it's duo' thing.  Very different purposes, and I don't have any objection to both of them coexisting.

The only thing I'd give Aether right now is a -1 cost to Immortal and a -2 cost to Phase Dragon.  Once, they were among the top-tier cards in the game, but as new cards have come and people have just become more proficient at deckbuilding in general, they've fallen behind the curve. 

[TheForbiddenOracle]

How about just increase the immortal and dragon's attack by 1 each..? Just my 2 cents about this, everything else seems fine.

[TheIdioticIdiot]

Bah.  Aether Nymph vs. Anubis is like saying we should change Otyugh because Scarab exists.  They're two remarkably different cards with different purposes and different balancing points.  Aether Nymph is a badass attacker (seriously, 8 power!) that's vulnerable for a single turn before it can immortalize itself -- it makes Shrieker go pout in the corner, and it's an AETHER card.   Anubis is much sturdier for that one turn, but makes a much poorer attacker, and of course there's the whole 'it's duo' thing.  Very different purposes, and I don't have any objection to both of them coexisting.

The only thing I'd give Aether right now is a -1 cost to Immortal and a -2 cost to Phase Dragon.  Once, they were among the top-tier cards in the game, but as new cards have come and people have just become more proficient at deckbuilding in general, they've fallen behind the curve. 

only problem is that aether nymph costs twice as much as shrieker (assuming it evolves from graboid), and then another 4 to immortalize itself...
not to mention that upped shriekers do have higher attack, and they can "immortalize" themselves too after the first turn (in which, they are less vulnerable than aether nymph), by burrowing, it will mean that they have only 5 attack, but they can always unburrow to deal that last 30~40 damage

also, your argument that anubis is a "duo" thing is not valid, here is the reason:
recluses are the only creatures worth/need quinting, so... in mono aether, if you are gonna use nymph, u will have to use recluses to make nymph have any uses other than attacking, but then, fractal and TU just beats this by a few miles...
in other words, for aether nymph to truly express her full potential, she needs to be in duos, trios, quartets, or rainbows

[918273645]

Phase dragon is the highest cost-worst damage dragon at 14 for 10 damage. You can't argue with that fact, and I'm not forgetting it comes it play Immortal.

I argue. Ever seen dragon? Why the hell would you need 30 HP? And, even if you did need the 30 HP, use upped Armagio. The dragon costs 11 , and only does 8 damage. Why would you use one of those?

[Glitch]

The problem I see with aether is that all of it's mechanics are... well... lacking.   They have no soft counters.

If the dragon is strong enough to play, it's too strong, because you can't kill it, or stall it.  If you have, say, fog, dusk, phase shield, dissipation shield, gravity shield, or hope, you've got a chance.  But if that things doing 10 damage per turn, you've got 10 turns to live.  Oh, and by the way, phase shield.

Aether is just too... immortal.  Aether is the element of "I do this and you can't do anything about it".  I copy my creatures and you can't do anything about it.  I protect my creatures and you can't stop me.  I protect myself and no damage can get through.  Unless you have one of the counters to aether, you lose.

At the same time, /if/ you have that counter, you win.  Phase shields?  No problem for direct damage or permanent control.  And who cares about phase dragon, I'm gravity mono.

So here's why I say you shouldn't buff aether.

The problem isn't in the balance, it's in the mechanic.

/Everything/ needs soft counters.  There has to be trade offs.  I'd be fine if phase dragon was 11 damage for 13, if there was a way to target immortal things.  But right now, aether plays phase cards and doesn't give a rat shit about what you play.  Either you play the hard counter and win, or you don't.  There is no damage race.  There is no strategy.  "I play my unkillable damage.  I play my perfect shield.  I hope I win."  "I steal your cards and you can't stop me.  I play as though I had two of your deck.  I hit with the best control card in the game.  I hope I win."

To counterpoint, with life, there's more.  Do I adrenaline your hitter to kill it with my thorn, or do I adrenaline my scorp and damage race?  When will I be drawing my heals?  Should I go for EM?  They're fire, do I switch to emerald shield?  Do I save up for a dragon to avoid CC?  Hell, with any element, there's a least /some/ ways to have strategy.

Which is why I'm fine with aether being really weak.  That dragon could do 3 damage per turn and still win.  If I don't have the specific hard-counters, it kills me.  Simple as that.

[Boingo]

I hesitated to post on this since my recent posts have been received by some as coming from an aether fanatic, instead of merely an aether fan. 

Great "as is":
1. lightning
2. quintessence
3. dimensional shield
4. spark
5. lobotomizer

Decent "as is":
1. phase recluse : not "great" since its ability is limited (no other great synergies with )
2. fractal
3. mindgate

OK but costly:
1. phase dragon
2. silence

Not worth it:
1. immortal
2. aether nymph

The cost reduction for the immortal/phase dragon suggested by Essence is reasonable.   If I recall correctly, these same costs were in place before fire shield affected them and before thorn carapace even existed.  Resistance to CC is a great feature, but severely limits the use of dragons/immortals--no adrenaline/LS/overdrive/mitosis/rage potion/etc. Spark and phase recluse are the only creatures even considered for use outside of mono-decks, and even sparks are used more as a 2-step spell than as a creature (spark/cremation.)   Another mid-level, non-immaterial creature would be excellent.

As for the nymph:  I don't have an turquoise nymph and they are rare anyway, so I haven't wasted my time toying with them in trainer.  They cannot be worth the effort.  If you go mono-aether, they have little value (maybe some kind of mindgate deck? not sure really) unless you pack recluses or plan to PU some decent creatures.  In most cases just sticking with a handful of quints is likely more efficient anyway since you are much more likely to draw them when you need them and the effect is instant (and not subject to CC/shields like the nymph would be.)  If you are using a rainbow, then anubis is a clear winner if you want a quinting creature.  In the end, the nymph needs help but since it's a rare card anyway, I don't think it should be a priority.

[DrunkDestroyer]

The only buff Aether Nymph needs is for Anubis to have a different ability that actually fits thematically. I won't get into a discussion about that.

You could say that, or you could say

The only buff Aether Nymph needs is to get a whole new ability, and change Quintessence to this new, original alchemy card, that fits thematically. I won't get into a discussion about how much more awesome, balanced and generally good for the game will be, and I won't insult any of those stupid people who disagree either.

Personally, I think the second opinion is just slightly better.
And by that I mean it is the only viable option, since it is miles better than the alternative.
 

Mocking my words isn't exactly what I would have expected as a reply. To be honest I find it rather out of line, and borderline offensive. Remove it please.

I did not intend to mock your words here. I just like putting a little spin on whatever I'm trying to say. I didn't actually think it was mocking you in any way, in fact, sentences like "I won't insult the stupid people" seemed, to me at least, mocking myself rather than anyone else. Maybe I'm just blind, but the only ways I could understand you not loking it are because it uses a very similar structure to yours, however with the opposite views.
If you would still like me to remove it, PM me, and I will do it. If you want to argue more with me, I'm cool with that too (in PMs, again)

[Boingo]

The problem I see with aether is that all of it's mechanics are... well... lacking.   They have no soft counters.

If the dragon is strong enough to play, it's too strong, because you can't kill it, or stall it.  If you have, say, fog, dusk, phase shield, dissipation shield, gravity shield, or hope, you've got a chance.  But if that things doing 10 damage per turn, you've got 10 turns to live.  Oh, and by the way, phase shield.

Aether is just too... immortal.  Aether is the element of "I do this and you can't do anything about it".  I copy my creatures and you can't do anything about it.  I protect my creatures and you can't stop me.  I protect myself and no damage can get through.  Unless you have one of the counters to aether, you lose.

At the same time, /if/ you have that counter, you win.  Phase shields?  No problem for direct damage or permanent control.  And who cares about phase dragon, I'm gravity mono.

So here's why I say you shouldn't buff aether.

The problem isn't in the balance, it's in the mechanic.

/Everything/ needs soft counters.  There has to be trade offs.  I'd be fine if phase dragon was 11 damage for 13, if there was a way to target immortal things.  But right now, aether plays phase cards and doesn't give a rat shit about what you play.  Either you play the hard counter and win, or you don't.  There is no damage race.  There is no strategy.  "I play my unkillable damage.  I play my perfect shield.  I hope I win."  "I steal your cards and you can't stop me.  I play as though I had two of your deck.  I hit with the best control card in the game.  I hope I win."

To counterpoint, with life, there's more.  Do I adrenaline your hitter to kill it with my thorn, or do I adrenaline my scorp and damage race?  When will I be drawing my heals?  Should I go for EM?  They're fire, do I switch to emerald shield?  Do I save up for a dragon to avoid CC?  Hell, with any element, there's a least /some/ ways to have strategy.

Which is why I'm fine with aether being really weak.  That dragon could do 3 damage per turn and still win.  If I don't have the specific hard-counters, it kills me.  Simple as that.

I agree with much of what you posted, though your analysis is ignoring the "cost" of high cost cards: affecting the supply of quanta greatly hinders the aether deck.  So, in addition to the shields you mentioned, you have to add cards like EQ and Discord into the counter cards among others.  As you can see listed, there are plenty of options for counters, and nearly every element has one (only time seemed to be lacking, though this is more likely because my brain is tired.)
 
Strong counters to mono-aether decks:
  Steal, dusk mantle
  EQ
  fog shield
  Discord, dissipation shield
  Explosion, fire bolt
  Gravity shield, anything momentum
  Thorn carapace/heal combo
  Miracle, hope

Lesser but effective counters:
  Devourers
  Poison/bonewall combo
  permafrost, ice bolt
  stoneskin
  BE