Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication.

[ZephyrPhantom]

So, I've been on these forums for quite a while, in various niches of the forums, and as of recently, I'd like to talk about how this community speaks to each other, person to person, staff to non-staff, elite to newbie. While I am aware some may think this is simply in response to the War 8 Round 5 drama, I actually feel this is a larger problem that represents how community mentality is changing here and how people are adapting to said change.

I'd like to present the following points, of which I will also go and provide a counterpoint for. In the interest of seeing what this community thinks, I'd appreciate if readers expressed their own thoughts on the state of things here.

As an additional note the majority of the points I am putting up here are not meant to represent the opinions of any one person (me included), but various points and concerns expressed through multiple topics of discussion with others.

Premise: Forum communication here is changing. We have a smaller sized forum now, which means a variety of things. Do we need more staff? What about player influx? Where do groups go from here?

• Point: The new generation thinks in a different way than the old one, and these forms of thought clash. We've gone through several new generations here, but of all the influx of newbies to this forum here, a different sense of tradition and different levels of funny and not funny have been established. Mods tend to follow the old generation's set of values, and little clashes tend to arise from what people deem appropriate/inappropriate, leading to a less comfortable chat, if not forums.
  
• Counterpoint: Compromise is a thing. Isolation shouldn't be. Despite the clashing values of humor and standards, this community has demonstrated an ability to work things out, assuming users are willing to talk details and not make assumptions. If users continue to split themselves into groups, we run the risk of talking less and assuming more, which means more silly rumors and drama.
  
• Point: A group of staff members have more freedom within the rules than others. While ugly, this is the elephant in the room: elitism exists in many a community out there, but it's always been stronger here, creating a divisive attitude where people either feel they have little chance to influence the status quo without very specific unwritten ways of "behaving" that aren't within the general requirements.
  
• Counterpoint: Open mindedness, common goals, more uniform understanding.  When the forum collaborates openly and as a whole for bigger projects, positive results tend to arise. This can be done both with secrecy (Mafias 1-43) or without secrecy (World of Elements for the old gen, Elements RPGs for those more recent to the forums). When we have events like War and Brawl, there are rules in place that should remain absolute. If an action is taken that compromises the integrity/stability of these rules, it should be avoided in favor of an alternative. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar: likewise, staff members tend to be better received privately when they are more honest about information than trying to conceal it for durations of time.
  
• Point: I don't feel like I can change a thing. I've talked to people but the response boils down to "Things are better this way." Related to elitism, but not quite the same issue - due to the smaller size of the community, we have less people on average that are always active and consequently less outlets for change as a whole. Conversely, we've also had an increased prescence in the number of chat mods, which means wider interpretation of the forum standard and thus more clashing (see first point.) New and semi-new players may enjoy playing the game, but the possibility of influencing the forums as a staff member is far less likely due to the specific unwritten standards the current generation of the "small circle" of staff have created. (Point 2)
  
• Counterpoint: We need to understand how people deviate from the forum standard. When people say "things are better this way" or "it's his job", they're not referring to a -specific- incident in question, they're usually referring to how the staff have been performing as a whole. It's one thing to say someone performs overall as a staffer, and it's another to say how they act on a day-to-day or recent basis. The attitude for the chatroom changes in relation to who is on at what time - likewise, differently timed forum responses can make people read the same message differently. If the problem is that people cannot comfortably talk about their various conflicts in the forum due to drama/misconceptions about authority/etc..., there should be a neutral ground where this kind of open communication is possible.

So what do you guys think about the current state of the forum? I would like this thread to be an expression of all opinions about the forum as a whole, no matter how positive or negative. For those of you who feel this is simply a detailed response to the War 8 drama, I encourage you to look beyond that problem and instead consider the changes in forum mentality this drama is a side effect of.

[MasN]

http://elementscommunity.org/forum/general-discussion/rep/msg1143166/#msg1143166
Note what higs and spike have said to elementaldearwatson. To be honest I personally did like my idea, but I didn't want to be on the receiving end of that. I don't really want to say much more, as this topic is very controversial.

[Glitch]

I'd like to take this opportunity to complain about Zblader's stench.

Truly, he has a tangible musk, and something must be done about it.

[theelkspeaks]

I feel that community's treatment of some of our newer/younger members can be excessively harsh at times, and would like to see a little more good faith assumed.

[Naesala]

I have at several times commented on the elitist attitudes around the forums, and how much I dislike them, as well as how several people think they can justify rudeness by "It's the internet, grow a backbone." And being a staff member doesn't help this, especially with the forum size. I've seen several people besides myself harassed, and spoken with many of them. Now, yes, I am thin skinned compared to many here, and I have left the forums twice over this to return a few months later, but it is still an issue worth addressing.

Something I've thought about is that there are a lot of "try hards" and "old farts". The try hards are newer members, though they may have been around for awhile, just relatively newer, who push for change and show enthusiasm and try to do things. Sometimes the quality is very poor, or it's very obvious they are trying far to hard. On the opposite side are the old farts, who constantly discourage the try hards, but make no effort to contribute anything of their own and rather spend their time reminiscing, joking around, or discouraging the try hards. Both sides have some issues that need to be worked out. This is kind of connected to Zblader's first point, but it isn't just traditions and humor, it's also what efforts they put in and how they respond to eachother.

Also I have no idea what happened in war. Woo.

[OldTrees]

I have been out of touch and thus am not up to date on the forum's problems. However the following 2 messages were true during my very long time here.

Most of our Veterans have been chosen with care despite them all being imperfect human beings.

However I would also like to remind them that the Wise Veteran listens for the Wisdom of the Newbs.



Now, could someone catch me up on the particulars? ZB's reaction is a signal to me that I should come back for a bit.

[ZephyrPhantom]

I have been out of touch and thus am not up to date on the forum's problems. However the following 2 messages were true during my very long time here.

Most of our Veterans have been chosen with care despite them all being imperfect human beings.

However I would also like to remind them that the Wise Veteran listens for the Wisdom of the Newbs.



Now, could someone catch me up on the particulars?

War 8, Round 5 is the most recent iteration of this issue. You may wish to read up on the controversy surrounding openEtG as well, if necessary.

[OldTrees]

War 8, Round 5 is the most recent iteration of this issue. You may wish to read up on the controversy surrounding oEtG as well.

Could you link me to the most recent oEtG controversy? I read some of it during my visit last Brawl.

[ZephyrPhantom]

War 8, Round 5 is the most recent iteration of this issue. You may wish to read up on the controversy surrounding oEtG as well.

Could you link me to the most recent oEtG controversy? I read some of it during my visit last Brawl.

I believe that is the incident we're both referring to: http://elementscommunity.org/forum/general-discussion/what-does-the-community-think-of-openetg/

Any further arguments about oEtG have mostly been made on chat. I should note the majority of the OP is based on both chat and forum conduct, so sources for arguments may not always be present.

EDIT:

[XX:42:45] ‹serprex› Zb being caught raising rabble rabble over nothing. Zero controversy around oetg since that poll went up

To clarify, even if oEtG was not the most recent instance of controversy on the forum, it did cause a divide that showcased another symptom of this issue. Negative attitudes caused by this kind of thing do still linger and affect chat conduct when they become an issue.

I would like to remind people that the issue at hand here is forum conduct and communication, not oEtG itself.

[Tiko]

Very well, my personal opinion:

I'm probably one of the few who clings more to the game itself rather than the community, but all things considered I'm not the most social-type of person to begin with - and that's probably a fault on my part. So-called elitism is something that'll always occur in tight communities for various reasons, from being simply 'good' in the very subject of said community's interest to self-claimed authorities. Problems and conflicts mostly start to occur after one member is privileged with powers and/or authorities that surpasses others' and starts to enjoy, or even holds unnecessary display of said thing. These members are appointed through various criteria, many of them being personal views of respected other members. I find these things inevitable in communities, and almost natural as it is part of the human factor.

Now, while I can be easily 'categorized as an old fart' (both in game terms and in my views about the Forums), I understand that somewhere this is a dying place - unless proven otherwise -, and certain changes are necessary to bring it up-to-date for the newer audience; and that fresh audience is what can keep life in a place like this. We can't allow it to become the 'personal playground' of a chosen few, because that can only maintain nostalgia, and hasten the decay.

But that said, just like the way of all things: Some ground rules were made at the very beginning and not by simple passion, but to maintain the very essence of things, and while newer generations are expected to rebel against their predeccessors, some traditions should be kept unharmed, and certain proven leaders should remain trusted.

[OldTrees]

*Breathe in*
*Breathe out*

To the Veterans:
I am disappointed. Specifically I am disappointed that you expected your reputation to persist or even grow. The decline in the average forum member lifespan leaves  a larger and larger percentage of your reputation's foundation forgotten. Those of you that are rightfully respected by your peers should not expect the same respect from the average forum member. This hubris created flammable material ready for sparks.


To the Average Member:
[old man voice]Back in my day you would be called New Members[/old man voice]. This forum has seen hard times. It was forged in fire several times during my stay. I had not even started lurking until after the first big fire. Over these times the community molded itself. A culture of trust and maturity was created. The Card Idea and Art section almost can't be recognized as what it was back when I started lurking. Not every individual change has been for the better but the forum has improved so far beyond its trolled roots. I know it would be unreasonable to ask you to trust while you question(don't stop questioning, the vets need it  ) without providing any evidence. However such evidence is increasingly hard to provide due to the decreasing forum member lifespans. So I will not ask you to trust while you question. I will merely mention the option and say that it helped me continue the reformation of the forum section I lived in while I was here. The questioning optimist is neither naive nor ruins opportunities.

[treebeard xiii]

as what I'd like to call myself a member of the lurker class where most of my posts have been in pvp events. As has already been said there is always an air of the elite within this community. However, it isn't as pronounced as other communities. The truth of the matter from the passing convos I have seen the forum has undergone some major changes from the SG time, to the middle ground, to our current forum and sometimes you find it hard to adapt. The fact is the older generation is slowly fading away but there are people who can't replace the old guard show a certain passion that keeps the community alive for years to come (*treebeard xiii tips hat to submachine and elk) of course there are probably more but those are the ones I have noticed the most.

my overall opinion of this forum is yes there are distinct generations but there are enough older members willing to bridge the gap. Yes the forum is still fixed in some of the old ways but compromises are being made slowly but surely the forum will adapt to change. We can only hope this community can hold together for as long as possible but when it does collapse the time will be cherished by members new and old.

Signing out.