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Offline allembrande jackson

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167742#msg1167742
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2014, 08:52:59 pm »
I used humor to get my point across: stop arguing (a valid point).  You use firmness and authority.  Potato and potato ...

All I want is for people to approach resolutions non-confrontationally.  I think you and I fundamentally agree
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Offline Treldon

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167743#msg1167743
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2014, 09:00:33 pm »
Actually I have a question: let's say two (or more) members find themselves in a conflict that they cannot resolve between themselves and need an outside - hopefully impartial - party to help them settle it. Who shall they turn to?

To be more specific, let's take a situation where the issue isn't who did what and who shall get warned or punished, but simply that they could not resolve it. Is that still a mod's job/authority, or do we have some sort of councilor? Or is the collective reaction of the others enough to solve such cases?
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167746#msg1167746
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2014, 09:06:29 pm »
I believe in chat it would be the moderators responsibility, and I know between staff I have talked to the admins before for counciling. Between other members, a rational third party or a relevant staff member might be useful. On one hand, I could see an official form "mediator" to be useful, but I could also see it burning out that person, and that person would have to be extremely unbiased and fairly well respected.
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Offline allembrande jackson

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167757#msg1167757
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2014, 09:50:51 pm »
I may be missing something here, but what sort of conflict are we talking about?

What sort of conflict might pop up which could not be resolved by the two people cooling it and (virtually) walking away?
What could be at stake in a discussion forum aside from opinion?  The only thing someone could lose is the feeling that they have convinced someone else of something...
What would a mediator do, tell someone that their opponent is right, and that they NEED to CHANGE their mind?

Could someone draw a hypothetical situation where there would be a conflict which necessitates a mediator (rather than a time-out)?
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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167763#msg1167763
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2014, 10:22:20 pm »
I may be missing something here, but what sort of conflict are we talking about?

What sort of conflict might pop up which could not be resolved by the two people cooling it and (virtually) walking away?
What could be at stake in a discussion forum aside from opinion?  The only thing someone could lose is the feeling that they have convinced someone else of something...
What would a mediator do, tell someone that their opponent is right, and that they NEED to CHANGE their mind?

Could someone draw a hypothetical situation where there would be a conflict which necessitates a mediator (rather than a time-out)?
The conflict we are talking about is the one described in the first point in the OP: different sets of values cause strong clashes that become difficult to resolve.

Conflict occurs in miscommunication in which one or both parties fails to be willing to compromise or reach a middle ground; see the above. Disregarding my tongue-in-cheek response to your original post, I should note that I actually did attempt to concede to CR in chat in hopes to resolving things only to get more hostile responses for a while before a resolution was made.

People generally have much more trouble conceding something if they feel it is A) clashing with their personal values or B) going against forum rules. Crockett displayed problems with A and I displayed problems with B initially. I could have avoided B at the start by throwing in an additional comment to any of my posts asking CR to take this issue to PMs. However reviewing my posts I failed to do so which contributed to his increasing need to criticize me on A even as I switched to attempting to resolve things with him on chat. (I should note Nae's reaction to your humor is also fairly similar to to his reaction to mine which was used in a similar situation. If this demonstrates anything, it should be that humor needs to be used carefully when diffusing arguments.)

In this scenario, a mediator does not need either side to change their mind but rather to step in and put a constructive halt to the situation, which OldTrees did to allow discussion to continue on the thread. By this point I had attempted to concede to Crockett on chat  solely to end the argument but as stated above by this point he had misunderstood me so much that he was refusing to accept any concessions I made.

A good example of another situation in which a mediator may have been helpful would've been the openEtG arguments a while back. A few users attempted to suggest that people on both sides of the copyright issue of 'copying/remaking' EtG be mediated by a neutral party, but a biased person then went and assumed said neutral party. However his bias prevented the discussion from remaining truly neutral and as such the arguments only became more harsh until everyone was forced into the 'cooldown' period mentioned above.

@ Naesala - I think this is a wise idea. Most chat mods take the role of warning and banning as needed but we rarely see chat mods attempt to mediate harsher discussions beyond continued requests to take things to PMs, which both parties sometimes ignore. Chat mods being open-minded and proactive mediators in situations would help resolve conflicts much more smoothly.

@ Treldon - Since there is no one staff member in the forums who is specifically requested to do this I would say it is the responsibility of all users to look out for their peers and mediate as needed. (See Counterpoint 1)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 10:24:55 pm by Zblader »

Offline Dm

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167764#msg1167764
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2014, 10:24:57 pm »
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Offline Naesala

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167768#msg1167768
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2014, 10:32:44 pm »
I may be missing something here, but what sort of conflict are we talking about?

You're a bit new here, so you've likely seen little of this forums communication problems. Not condescending, just pointing this out.

There is the matter as what is funny to some and not funny to others, which I'm sure you have witnessed. There is the issue of elitism, where older members don't respect the newer or the less skilled, and conversly there is an issue of lack of respect from the newer players to the old, whom they think get special treatment. There is the issue of those who think trolling is funny, those who think harassing is funny, and etc. And then outside the personality issues I just listed, there are issues of different viewpoints on subjects leading to fights, there are unresolved stresses from events, competitions, and so on where people harbor grudges,  there is the constant question of what is fair and is someone getting special treatment.

Yes, some of us (me included) are thin skinned, and a lot of issues could, theoretically, be resolved by walking away. However, this is an extremely small forum with rather frequent shifts in power in the form of staff. Issues don't just vanish like they might elsewhere where you might not see that person post again for awhile. The majority of people who are here are here a lot, and you can't avoid them as easily. Ideally, people could handle this better and the forum would be guided in a way where the personality differences weren't as big a deal. But it isn't ideal, hence why this thread is here.

Spoiler for For your other questions:
Purely hypothetically, let's assume John and Jane are both members of Council. They're talking in chat and John makes a sexist joke, which sets off Jane. They fight for awhile until a moderator makes them shut up. Because of this, they each have strong opinions about the other. Now, while cooling off may happen, since they see eachother post every day in Council about various projects, they might lash out at eachother, especially if they have differing opinions there, or if they're very petty, disagree purely on dislike of eachother. This leads to breakdown in one of the forum's most important groups, and mediation might be the only way to fix it short of banning a member. On smaller scale, if two newer (e.g. been on the forums for a month, not brand new) players were to get into a fight, one might leave and never return because of the hostility they faced with little resolution. Or a newer player being scared off by an old elitist player. There's lots of problems here, and people won't always just cool off.

What could be at stake? Well, staff positions. Major forum changes. People leaving the already tiny community leading to faster collapse. Event integrity. A lot, pretty much all aspects of the forum can be damaged or destroyed if people cannot communicate effectively. See the above example with council.

I'm sure you're aware mediators and therapists exist in real life as well paid positions, yes? I'm not sure why you're questioning them so hard here. It's not about selecting a side, heck, that defeats the point of a mediator. It's about helping the two resolve the conflict, possibly with a compromise, possibly with an agree to disagree, while mending hurt feelings and trying to preserve mutual respect.


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Offline allembrande jackson

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167771#msg1167771
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2014, 10:35:20 pm »
No offence taken; I used to moderate for GC

I see.  I just don't understand why, after a disagreement between X and Y there needs to be a resolution.  People don't always agree, and in a world of words, we can just stop listening if someone has offended us.

Its funny to think of someone needing an apology; if X says something which upsets me it is I who am upset, and it is I who must become un-upset.  It also confuses me because if someone offends me, it occurs to me that they have offended because they (a) inadvertently gave offense, so I forgive, or (b) intentionally offended, in which case I discount the value of their words, thereby making the apology of little use (it becomes a bribe offered in a de-valued currency)

The main point of communication is to move ideas from one person to other (often many) people.  The importance of clarity is to the speaker, because it is his or her ideas which risk being lost.

I am not a very emotional person.  I do appreciate the commitment to clarity demonstrated by most of us gathered here :)

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Offline Naesala

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167779#msg1167779
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2014, 10:46:15 pm »
Its funny to think of someone needing an apology; if X says something which upsets me it is I who am upset, and it is I who must become un-upset.  It also confuses me because if someone offends me, it occurs to me that they have offended because they (a) inadvertently gave offense, so I forgive, or (b) intentionally offended, in which case I discount the value of their words, thereby making the apology of little use (it becomes a bribe offered in a de-valued currency)

This is something on which you and I fundamentally disagree, which might be because you're less emotional as you said, or from different backgrounds/cultures. It's fine if you don't need to be apologized to when you're offended, but here's my side.

I don't think of people needing apologies as funny, but rather essential. If X said something to upset me, I must become un-upset, but X can help me, and Y can help show X how to help me, and hopefully the same in return as usually both sides leave upset. If (a) is true, then an apology lets me know that they've acknowledged their mistake and they wish to remedy it, which allows me to forgive and for us to learn and grow. If (b) is true, it does not necessarily make their words untrue. While I can put less stake in them, theoretically at least, it does not make them valueless especially to an emotional person. In which case, an apology that is sincere means the same as with (a), that they acknowledge they made a mistake in offending, not necessarily that their point was wrong but that they conveyed it poorly, we learn and grow and forgive. If the apology is insincere, it at least shows that they wish to make an effort to restore mutual respect and end further disagreements for the sake of the hurt person and/or the community. This is why I place value in apologies.

I hope that's a fairly straight-forward and logical approach to an emotional ideology.
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Offline eaglgenes101

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167781#msg1167781
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2014, 10:56:10 pm »


But seriously. Anyone going to help me understand what the heck is going on?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 10:58:25 pm by eaglgenes101 »
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Offline allembrande jackson

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167786#msg1167786
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2014, 11:37:22 pm »
Makes sense.  Also, on reflection I realized that if everyone's solution was to walk away, we'd run out of forum members.  Reconcilliation is ket to community.

Thanks Naesala :)

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Offline Naesala

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Re: Community, let's have a little talk about clear communication. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=56698.msg1167794#msg1167794
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2014, 11:55:21 pm »
Had to have it explained to me in chat. It's a Teal Dear. TL;DR. Too long, Didn't Read.

Silly Eagle.

Also, no problem, glad I could explain.
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