Balanced turns to win

[Glitch]

The main way of finding overpowered cards is by studying the turns to win with their decks.  For instance, a cremation based golem deck, the fastest in the game according to this study (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,8813.0.html), takes five turns to win.  This doesn't necessarily mean any of the cards deserve to be nerfed, but as the top three fastest decks are cremation/golem decks, which are about half a turn faster than all over decks, it looks as though at least some of the cards are out of balance.

Or are they?  Could it be that the other decks are simply underpowered?

A baseline needs to be established, so we know what we're balancing to.  So, elements players, how long SHOULD it take a rush deck to win?  At what point do we look at a deck, and instead of praising it, nerf it?  Where will the baseline for balance be set?

[guolin]

To me, I don't think ttw means a lot in terms of balance. Yes, it allows you to grind stuff fast so you can get more electrum. But that shouldn't be what this game is about. What there should be is a more rewarding pvp option, perhaps a larger reward per hour for winning than in level 3? This way control decks operated by a human player come into the spotlight and balance rush-type decks. Rush-type decks now become much harder to win with, and decks now have to be more balanced, sacrificing win speed for control over the enemy and other synergies.

That being said, I don't think a baseline should be set until pvp is more emphasized. Since rushing is most efficient for single-player, it doesn't matter as much whether or not it can grind electrum (which isn't something like currency you can buy with real life money) faster than other decks.

[plastiqe]

I would disagree (http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,10170.msg136631#msg136631) that looking at jdmt's study is the main way of finding overpowered cards.  And of all people I didn't expect a post like this from you Gl1tch, what happened to only looking at the cards?

I've always been a fan of those decks ever since I saw the original version from kiszol. 

[Glitch]

Strangely enough, I didn't think I'd make this thread either.  But someone, I forget who, pointed out that only looking at cards you can only work theoretically.  It is in game you get actual testing.  And seeing as we have piles of data from "testing" cards, why not interpret the data?

[guolin]

Strangely enough, I didn't think I'd make this thread either.  But someone, I forget who, pointed out that only looking at cards you can only work theoretically.  It is in game you get actual testing.  And seeing as we have piles of data from "testing" cards, why not interpret the data?

Fighting Ai3's don't mean anything except that a particular deck can quickly beat an Ai3. On the other hand, some of those decks can be easily countered by other decks. Take the Elite Otyugh, for example. It really doesn't help at all in a rush deck, because it takes a long time to build up any damage and costs a lot while doing so, too. In addition, Ai3 don't have that many creatures that pose a threat, either. Does that mean Elite Otyugh is underpowered and needs a buff?

[jmdt]

I know where Gl1tch is going with this thread, and I agree in part.

As far as rush decks are concerned, if we are going to buff/nerf rush decks we should start at the bottom/top of the list and work from there.  That would say that if we have to nerf a rush deck, Cremeation and Lava Destroyer should be the first 2 cards examined, followed by graboid and antlion.

However, the entire story is not completely expressed by the ttw values.  Destroyers have 1 hp so are extremely vulnerable the first several turns to CC.  Also there must be cremeation foddor for the deck to function, making the deck prone to bad draws.

[Glitch]

Look, this is just to establish a baseline.  In MtG, they balance decks so that good decks take 8 turns to win.  Great decks may do faster.  That's what I'm going for here, that number for elements.

[guolin]

However, the entire story is not completely expressed by the ttw values.  Destroyers have 1 hp so are extremely vulnerable the first several turns to CC.  Also there must be cremeation foddor for the deck to function, making the deck prone to bad draws.

This is exactly what I am talking about. As I said earlier, if pvp is emphasized, decks heavy in, say, creature control will expose this deck's weakness, and it will certainly make the lava golem deck much more balanced. Currently, lava golem rush excels in beating Ai3 and has a low ttw to boot, but will it be the same story if it is used in, say, PvP1? A few thunderstorms and a ice/permafrost shield, and instead of ttw you're looking at ttl.

Again, an emphasization on pvp will at least balance these decks partially. Only then can we truly see a fair ttw baseline. In MtG, players actually play other players, so a good rush deck there has to take in consideration enemy decks that can easily counter it.

[kobisjeruk]

TTW study was made versus Elder/AI3
AI3 is what we call a goldfish opponent because most of AI3 deck do not pose a threat to your tuned up deck so finding a balance from TTW study with data extracted from this result is moot
for example, Destroyer v3.0 (or whatever its called) was the fastest in that study but if you tried it on T50, you will get less favorable results than say, a deck with a good amount of permanent control (due to SoGs, shield et such)
what i'm trying to say is, in order to find the baseline for card/deck power level, you need to look at the deck performance in all area of the game, be it AI3, T50, HB, FG, PvP etc
just because a deck performs considerably well vs AI3 doesnt mean its overpowered, but if a deck does well against a majority of the field (AI3, T50, HB, FG, PvP) now there wherein the problem lies

[Rastafla]

In MtG, players actually play other players, so a good rush deck there has to take in consideration enemy decks that can easily counter it.

This. Its more or less impossible to balance a game based on PvP and player vs cpu/AI at the same time. It wont happen.
The biggest part of elements is the player vs cpu/AI. Its the only real source for cards and coins if you intend to make any progress later on.

[camper]

Great poll

[SickPillow]

i usually win in 30 turns.  where is that option?